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Post by Mr Nasty on Jul 20, 2004 11:54:03 GMT -5
I'm wanting to focus on "Apocalypse Nowish" to "Inside Out". It is my opinion that many of these episodes were severely lacking in the logic department. Really, the writers must just look back at these and go "Man, that was crap". To get the ball rolling, in "Soulless" why did the Fang Gang act so out of character? They let Angelus walk all over them when he had no real power. This is how it should have gone: "Right Angelus, we have your soul and you're locked in a big cage. You have no chance of escaping. We are going to restore your soul in about an hour but before we do that tell us what you know about The Beast. Angel is going to fight him and if he goes in unprepared then he'll probably die and then you'll die too." It's a shame because I liked this episode the first time through. It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny and that really bothers me.
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Post by Disgruntled Gremlin on Jul 20, 2004 12:02:37 GMT -5
The only person who seemed to have the guts to stand up to Angelus was Lilah
'And yet, I'm not the monkey in the box.'
Brilliant!
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Post by TraditionalScream on Jul 20, 2004 13:02:26 GMT -5
Mr Nasty. I always wondering why they didn't try to torture Angelus in that cage by throwing or squirting holy water at him until he talked. And why feed him blood just 'cos he's feeling peckish? I mean what?!
I loved how Angelus played on the group though, but it's interesting to think he didn't really manage to get under the skin of any of the women - Lilah and Cordevilia did just fine, and Fred's abuse was hardly personal. Seemed like Gunn, Connor and Wesley were the ones he managed to play well. And what about Wesley treating Angelus like they were strangers? Hmm, lots of questions. I loved this episode though. ;D
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Post by higherpower on Jul 20, 2004 18:36:45 GMT -5
I love season 4, actaully. I know a lot of people don't like the season but I love how dark it is. Also, surprizingly, I like Evil Cordelia. A lot of people don't think the storyline doesn't make much sense, but here is how I see it, Cordy is taken to the higher planes and while there Jasmine infuses herself into Cordy's body.
When Jasmine was done she returns Cordy to earth although an unexpected side effct is the amnesia leaving Cordy with no personal memories and Jasmine dormant.
Lorne's magical mojo restores Cordy's memories and awakens Jasmine but to begin with it is still Cordy for the most part. Jasmine does not take control immediately, it is much more gradual.
To begin with she is only able to influence Cordy to do things out of character (such as sleep with Connor), later she is able to take control of Cordy's body whilst Cordy herself sleeps (when she killed Manny) and then eventually she has taken over entirely, repressing Cordy's psyche altogether by the time of 'Calvary' when Jasmine murders Lilah.
If you want proof of this watch the beginning of Apocalypse Now'ish, why would Jasmine have a nightmare about the Beast? Also the look on Cordy's face when she wakes up to discover she has slept with Connor in Habeas Corpses makes it clear that it is still Cordy in there. Why would Jasmine look so disgusted, she wanted that to happen in order to get Cordy pregnant?
In fact all of the expressions of regret we see on Cordy's face when no one else is looking tell you that it isn't Jasmine all the time. Jasmine certainly does not take over completely until Soulless but it is definately all her by the end of Calvary.
You just gotta pick up on the small details to see the real story.
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Post by Mr Nasty on Jul 20, 2004 21:19:33 GMT -5
I think it's safe to say that Cordy was Jasmine from the beginning of "Apocalypse Nowish" onwards.
Any expressions she made would have been in order to continue the charade. If she acted too out of character then Angel and Co would suspect her of foul play.
Anyway, that's not really the issue here.
How about this one? When Angelus was free in "Salvage" why did he just go to a bar? He should be hunting down and killing all those who might re-ensoul him. Since Willow translated the gypsy curse, Angelus is in a very difficult situation. He has to devote every second he can to maintaining his soullessness, not sit drinking until somebody turns him back into Angel again.
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Post by higherpower on Jul 21, 2004 4:51:57 GMT -5
One thing about Angelus, he is a little too cocky. I think he thinks he is all powerful. He wouldn't think too go off and kill Willow because, hey, he is Angelus and no one can bring him down. He thinks about what he wants to do.
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Post by Mr Nasty on Jul 21, 2004 4:59:10 GMT -5
Yeah, I hear what you're saying HigherPower and I agree that this is what the writers were aiming for. Angelus was to be complacent because otherwise somebody was going to have to die.
It just seems like such a dense thing to do and Angelus wasn't supposed to be dense. After all, he spent years avoiding the slayer and running from Holtz so he can't be that sure of himself.
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Post by TraditionalScream on Jul 21, 2004 15:21:24 GMT -5
I think Angelus went to the bar for information about the Beast. He had already figured that he had a boss. I don't think complacency comes into it at all, after all as Mr N says, he wasn't daft enough to take on slayers or Holtz. He liked his victims nice and powerless.
I think Angelus' plan went: deal with the most important things first - finding the Beastmaster, big new player, bringer of apocalypse, etc (and later the b*****d who was invading his head and trying to pull his strings and dominate him), and after all that was settled, he could get down to playing with or picking off the old gang.
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Post by Bango on Jul 21, 2004 20:27:28 GMT -5
I hated the bar scenes, the demons were just too stupid, and it was a stupid scenery.
Never understood why he wanted Angel's soul back unharmed either.
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Post by Mr Nasty on Jul 21, 2004 21:21:33 GMT -5
Who wanted Angel's soul back unharmed?
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Post by Bango on Jul 21, 2004 21:27:40 GMT -5
I was talking about Angelus wanted Angel's soul back, and in unharmed condition.
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Post by Mr Nasty on Jul 21, 2004 21:33:38 GMT -5
Oh, I can't remember him saying it specifically but he probably just wanted to make sure he had control of it so that people couldn't restore Angel. But why didn't he go and kill the Fang Gang? That should have been the first thing he did but he let them all live when he had ample opportunity to end them all before the sanctuary spell was put in place.
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Post by TheMasterGeek on Jul 22, 2004 16:12:34 GMT -5
Actually, I thought from "Soulless" to "Inside Out" was the strongest set of episodes in season 4, but maybe I was smoking the a bad batch of pot during those episodes, . Yeah, it would have been smart for Angelus to kill his Angel's friends once he escaped, but then who would have been in Season 5's cast. Angel and Spike with Knox, that would have been interesting. Also, who would have called Willow to restore Angel's soul if they are all dead. No one, that would me it would mean the series would have been called Angelus. There were some plot errors in season 4, but hey Angel's crippling plot errors, is still better than whats on the the WB right now.
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MaxC
Big Bad
ooh yeah
Posts: 198
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Post by MaxC on Jul 23, 2004 12:44:28 GMT -5
I didnt find anything wrong with Season 4. Any nitpicking could have been done with other seasons too, including seasons from Buffy.
Season 4 Angelus was a bit too sarcastic, compared to the sneaky, creature of the night type in Season 2 of Buffy. Why didnt he killed the fang gang? Maybe because he was trying to figure a way to separate them and slwoly kill them or drive them crazy - Angelus style. Take his time, no need to rush, he's not getting any older.
He also probably figured out whoever stole his soul was on his side, at least for the moment. Also, do you think the gang would actually torture Angelus? or bring Angel back without any info - the gang doesnt want to harm Angel, any torture harming Angelus would harm Angel too - they are one and the same person.
Bringing Angel back without any more knowledge is silly too - Angelus knows this. His banking that they wont re-ensoul him because they (the gang) dont want Angel to die. Reverse pychology.
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Post by Mr Nasty on Jul 23, 2004 20:57:31 GMT -5
Ok then. Kinda flimsy answers, some of those but I guess they're ok.
How about this then. Why did Gunn threaten to kill Angelus several times? Why did he even take a crossbow down to the cage with him? Idol threats much? He should have had a tranquiliser gun. Stupid writing.
Why didn't Jasmine have the whole fang gang killed by The Beast? What did she want them alive for when she wasn't too concerned with thousands of other random deaths? So that she could fool them? Her plan would have worked out much better if she boinked Connor then got rid of Angel & Co.
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