Vampires and Alcohol

[MaxC]

Now I wasnt sure if this should go in the Angel thread or the Buffy thread, but since I'm going to reference a Buffy episode, it seems appropriate.

My memories not what it's use to be, so here it is. I got the impression at the end of Angel season 5 that vampires cannot get drunk what so ever. However, it would seem this thinking is wrong since in Season 3 of Buffy, episode 'Lover's Walk' we see Spike getting drunk and passing out until sunrise (where his hand caught on fire). So why did I think that in the first place?

[GreatMuppetyNick]

You're probably talking about "Shells", where Spike tries to get drunk on those tiny bottles, but couldn't because it's harder for vampires to get drunk due to their constitution.

I don't think it means that they can't get drunk, simply that they need a lot more of it.

[tjaman]

Like most of the 'verse, the abilities for vampires and demons to get drunk or to get poisoned or how long it takes for them to be immolated is entirely driven by the plot.

[quantumcat]

It may vary with the body-same as with living people.

But there is a strange phenomenon that may apply to the undead,too.

People tend to get as drunk as they expect to get.

If you give people alcohol or some other drug and let them think they had
a plain drink,a certain number of folks will stay cold sober anyway.

This affect can also be seen when folks drink caffeine yet go right to sleep afterwards
-IF it's in the right setting.

On the other hand,the same carefully controlled study showed people given innocent drinks or pills
that they thought were mind-altering would show signs of drunkeness and even wake with a hangover.

This placebo effect worked on emotions,co-ordination,vision tests,etc.

I'd bet a vampire who expected to pass out,lose his soul,whatever could approximate that if his mind-over-
matter abilities extended as far beyond the human norm as everything else about him.

This could explain why the cross,invitations and holy water aren't consistent in how they work.

They are affected by the vampire's belief system.

One could speculate that a vampire with sufficient psychic control could walk in the sun (regenerating faster than he burned)
or show other unusual abilities.

I'm not sure where shapeshifting or dissolving into smoke comes in but living a few eons would give one time to evolve into
almost anything.

[dEz]

Spike appears to be drunk all the time at the point when Dru leaves him in the early episodes. He seems to be drunk again when Buffy is not returning his affections in Season 5. Spike even carries around a flask much of the time. So I would assume they can get drunk.

[MaxC]

quantumcat said:

This could explain why the cross,invitations and holy water aren't consistent in how they work.

They are affected by the vampire's belief system.

If I remembered correctly, this is exactly what 'The Master' said in season 1. The Master could hold a cross easily because he was not afraid of the symbol. Yet it still burned his hand.

Maybe he was just old, much like an adult's tolerance for heat is much higher.

Without getting too technical, I thought 'Lover's Walk' was a great episode. It is also one of the episodes that cements my belief that Angel and Buffy should be together - even Spike knew it.

[GreatMuppetyNick]

maxc said:

It is also one of the episodes that cements my belief that Angel and Buffy should be together - even Spike knew it.

I think we came away with different interpretations of that scene.

[MaxC]

nickseng said:

maxc said:

It is also one of the episodes that cements my belief that Angel and Buffy should be together - even Spike knew it.

I think we came away with different interpretations of that scene.

I'd be interested to hear your interpretations.

The main theme in that episode was 'lost love'. Spike losing Drusilla, Buffy and Angel, Xander and Cordelia, Oz and Willow, Xander and Willow. The end scene showed that they were all separate but very much in love.

What cemented my view was this:
Although its always been stated that Xander 'see things', I believe that Spike also have that insights. What he said to Buffy and Angel was this (or something close):

'You two are not friends, you two will never be friends. You two will love each other till death takes you.'

Spike was right and Angel and Buffy knew this too which was shown near the end of the episode. I might be an old romatic, but I believe true love is when you cannot be friends after a breakup.

[GreatMuppetyNick]

maxc said:

What cemented my view was this:
Although its always been stated that Xander 'see things', I believe that Spike also have that insights. What he said to Buffy and Angel was this (or something close):

'You two are not friends, you two will never be friends. You two will love each other till death takes you.'

Spike was right and Angel and Buffy knew this too which was shown near the end of the episode. I might be an old romatic, but I believe true love is when you cannot be friends after a breakup.

I did think that at first, but as I watched more and more of the 'verse, it occured that it meant something else. And the key to that phrase was "You'll never be friends", and not "You two will love each other till death takes you" as I thought previously.

Spike was right, Angel and Buffy will never be friends. Or at least, they will never be friends the way Buffy and Xander or Xander and Willow ever could be. There is too much passion between them to for anything other than casual friendship to work.

In my opinion, true friendship takes a lot more work than those passionate love affairs. Angel and Buffy do love each other very much, that I don't deny, but take away all that passion and what do you have?

I don't believe love (and friendship) should work without understanding, and compromise and sacrifice; which Bangel don't have enough of. This is why I believe Spike said what he said, they could never be friends because there isn't enough basis for it, not because they are star-crossed lovers.

[quantumcat]

I think Angel and Buffy could be friends to a very deep degree
but that can't develop while there are other things getting in the way.

The passion and star-crossed lover bit (plus their 'professional' duties)
interfere with the ease that comes with true love in all its forms-even friendship.

They don't prevent it but they can stunt or obscure it.

The painful longing Willow had for Xander in season one or the heavy breathing
the two had later on that broke up their affairs with Oz and Cordy would not have
fazed Dark Willow.

There had to be a deeper level of knowing and caring.

Angel and Cordy and Buffy and Spike got to relate more on that level.

There's a profound need for that connection which goes beyond our need for passionate love.

We have to learn how to bond in that way with *someone* (even a parent or pet)
before we can fully explore anything else.

Angel and Buffy realize that they have to be able to let down and enjoy being people
-not Slayers or Champions-before they can be lovers.

They have to be friends,too.

Once they have that foundation,they can overlay the lust and heroic part with no problems.

Until then,the love will stay somewhat vulnerable and superficial.

Their love is genuine,strong and capable of going all the way.

They can have forever.

But they have to have time and space enough to get the total
'mind-meld'.

Otherwise,it won't get much beyond great smootchies.

BTW,if you think being true friends screws up being true lovers,ask Zoe.

It's not often that folks let the two be combined but when they do,the synergy is incredible.

[tjaman]

Zoe and Wash were one of the best couples on television.

There was bickering. Sometimes it was very serious.

But they were totally there for each other.


[niska] How can I bicker with you if you are dying? [/niska]




OK, well, great line, but actually even now, still a little too soon.

I see that now.

Sorry.

[MaxC]

nickseng said:

I did think that at first, but as I watched more and more of the 'verse, it occured that it meant something else. And the key to that phrase was "You'll never be friends", and not "You two will love each other till death takes you" as I thought previously.

Wierdly enough, Im doing the opposite of you.

nickseng said:

In my opinion, true friendship takes a lot more work than those passionate love affairs. Angel and Buffy do love each other very much, that I don't deny, but take away all that passion and what do you have?

But that's why I believe that is true love. The passion never goes out. The passion overlays the friendship and it doesn't matter what happens, it is still there. I really need to make a coherent explanation of what I feel about this topic.

The question of true friendship vs love.

nickseng said:

I don't believe love (and friendship) should work without understanding, and compromise and sacrifice; which Bangel don't have enough of.

I agree that this is true in life. Bangel love could never work in life, bt only because I believe what they have is deeper than just love.

nickseng said:

This is why I believe Spike said what he said, they could never be friends because there isn't enough basis for it, not because they are star-crossed lovers.

Usually I would agree with you.

But after watching the episode I have to disagree. The general feeling I get is that Buffy and Angel are meant to be together but can't due to life.

I am absolutely sure Spike actually said they (Bangel) will love each other till death - that they cannot be friends because their love has reach a place where it will never goes out. I was meaning to get the exact quote last night but I forgot.

[tjaman]

Young people are so cute.