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Post by Rebelman on Dec 21, 2005 2:05:47 GMT -5
First off I am sorry and I do not know what the new laws are.
Number 2 I have not been here since like forever or anywhere so I have no idea what is going on.
My spouting knows enough. If a law is unsound. Then best be if it denying a specific part of the constitution then it is best to show them.
The terrorism factors of the law for TERRORISTS work. I do NOT KNOW how it applies in THIS case.
And No I do not thik your son should be locked up.
And that is as nicely as I can put that.
Reb, they thought that Enzo was making a "Terroristic threat" by saying "Tomorrow is the Day", and they arrested him because of that. What the problem is, the law in Missouri is so vague, unconstitutionally vague, that something as innocent as "Tommorrow is the Day", which could mean anything, could be taken as a terrorist threat. Enzo got arrested for writing that on paper, even though he had no intention of doing harm to anyone. And that is the problem with the anti-terrorism laws, they could take a juvenile prank, and take it as someone blowing up a school. This doesn't help protect America from terrorists, it actually helps them. There is so much room for abuse by the people in power, that in the long run, it isn't productive. So the new law prohibits any suggestive potential terrorist remarks of any form?
He wrote that on paper and someone saw it and I assume it went to the School board for a terrorist remark?
What kinds of things are they doing? They have no valid proof of explosives or endangerment material so how can they hold it up entirely.
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Post by Charisma69 on Dec 21, 2005 2:06:12 GMT -5
Sorry, got to stop you there. If we terrorize our enemies, we are lowering ourselves to their level, and that is what they want. That gives them more ammo to use against us, and allows them to recruit more people, because we are terrorizing people. We need to act above the terrorists, we need to give them the same rights as the normal American, because it shows to the rest of the world that we aren't the great evil that our enemies make us out to be, by showing compassion. And then if we find out, through the right channels that someone is trying to hurt many Americans, we can come down on them with the full extent of the law. We need to protect our security, but not at the price that George Bush is pushing. We need to have checks and balances to make sure there are no abuses. And thats the problem with take away Due Process, it leads to abuses to the ones in power, and makes them have too much power, and that subverts the Constitution.
Exactly, take my sons case for instance. There was absolutely NO PROOF that my son meant this to be a terrorist act and yet that's what he was arrested and convicted of - being a terrorist.
All the witnesses stated that it was a stupid prank, it was not meant to be a threat nor was it meant to be taken as a threat. There was no evidence that stated anything to the contrary.
But the law stated that
Enzo was found guilty of a Class D felony, specifically "With reckless disregard of the risk of causing the evacuation, quarantine or closure of any portion of a building, inhabitable structure, place of assembly or facility of transportation;"
This law was just passed in Missouri in August of this year. There was no proof that he meant "reckless disregard" but since the law is deliberately vague he was convicted anyway.
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Post by Rebelman on Dec 21, 2005 2:11:05 GMT -5
This is very weird, they aren't handling very well. Shouldn't we be looking for Al Quida not little boys?
Did they even do a search to see if he had what they accused him of. Normally they do a search procedure to at least prove the use of the acclaim.
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Post by Charisma69 on Dec 21, 2005 2:15:50 GMT -5
Sorry, got to stop you there. If we terrorize our enemies, we are lowering ourselves to their level, and that is what they want. That gives them more ammo to use against us, and allows them to recruit more people, because we are terrorizing people. We need to act above the terrorists, we need to give them the same rights as the normal American, because it shows to the rest of the world that we aren't the great evil that our enemies make us out to be, by showing compassion. And then if we find out, through the right channels that someone is trying to hurt many Americans, we can come down on them with the full extent of the law. We need to protect our security, but not at the price that George Bush is pushing. We need to have checks and balances to make sure there are no abuses. And thats the problem with take away Due Process, it leads to abuses to the ones in power, and makes them have too much power, and that subverts the Constitution. You make some valid points on not scaring them to death.
What about in the cases that endanger us entirely if something isn't done immediately? Should we go through Due Process then? Or should there be a sped up version to get something accomplished?
If we can't find ways to catch them then we can't prosicute them. That is basically what the Wiretapping is. A way to arrest them in there words so we can prosecute them. They are smart they won't do anything if they know they are being seen.
See, the problem is it's too hard to pass a law like that and not have it affect the innocent.
And since the law is on the books the judge has to prosecute every case by those laws.
That's what happened to my son. The Judge didn't look like he wanted to convict him but since the law is written the way it is he really didn't have a choice.
He can't let Enzo get off with a warning because you know the real criminals lawyers will use that as precedent to get their clients off. So innocent children have to suffer - and their parents right along with them.
I'm out $1,013 so far in legal costs for Enzo's case - and that's with a Public Defender. Not to mention all the hours lost at work since I was so restricted in the hours I can work - and I'm still restricted now.
This is a living nightmare and it won't be over anytime soon. Enzo is on probation indefinitely - basically as long as they want him to be with a minimum of Six Months.
He has to be perfect at school and everywhere in order to get off probation. His probation officer deliberately bated him at our first meeting, just trying to make him angry. Right there in front of me. I was too shocked to know what to do.
I'm going to have to get a small tape recorder for my son to record every meeting with his Juvenile Officer so I can protect him from abuse.
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Post by GreatMuppetyNick on Dec 21, 2005 2:17:01 GMT -5
And this is exactly what we meant by "abuse". The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.
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Post by Charisma69 on Dec 21, 2005 2:19:37 GMT -5
This is very weird, they aren't handling very well. Shouldn't we be looking for Al Quida not little boys?
Did they even do a search to see if he had what they accused him of. Normally they do a search procedure to at least prove the use of the acclaim.
They just searched his locker at school, which had no bomb making materials.
They never searched our house, his computer, or anything else which shows they never took his threat seriously. They didn't evacuate the school either.
They just said in light of recent bomb threats at the school they were taking this as another threat - even though they all pretty much agreed that he wasn't serious.
My Dad wants to take this all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary. I don't have an issue with it except I can't afford anymore legal bills and I'm not sure we'll win given the current climate in our country - which is a very dangerous climate is innocent children can have this happen to them.
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Post by Charisma69 on Dec 21, 2005 2:21:29 GMT -5
And this is exactly what we meant by "abuse". The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.
Yup, just ask the inhabitants of Miranda. All their government wanted was a "world without sin" and they killed them all.
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Post by Rebelman on Dec 21, 2005 2:22:07 GMT -5
You make some valid points on not scaring them to death.
What about in the cases that endanger us entirely if something isn't done immediately? Should we go through Due Process then? Or should there be a sped up version to get something accomplished?
If we can't find ways to catch them then we can't prosicute them. That is basically what the Wiretapping is. A way to arrest them in there words so we can prosecute them. They are smart they won't do anything if they know they are being seen.
See, the problem is it's too hard to pass a law like that and not have it affect the innocent.
And since the law is on the books the judge has to prosecute every case by those laws.
That's what happened to my son. The Judge didn't look like he wanted to convict him but since the law is written the way it is he really didn't have a choice.
He can't let Enzo get off with a warning because you know the real criminals lawyers will use that as precedent to get their clients off. So innocent children have to suffer - and their parents right along with them.
I'm out $1,013 so far in legal costs for Enzo's case - and that's with a Public Defender. Not to mention all the hours lost at work since I was so restricted in the hours I can work - and I'm still restricted now.
This is a living nightmare and it won't be over anytime soon. Enzo is on probation indefinitely - basically as long as they want him to be with a minimum of Six Months.
He has to be perfect at school and everywhere in order to get off probation. His probation officer deliberately bated him at our first meeting, just trying to make him angry. Right there in front of me. I was too shocked to know what to do.
I'm going to have to get a small tape recorder for my son to record every meeting with his Juvenile Officer so I can protect him from abuse.
Did they do your son on a state level law or is this the federal one? You mentioned Missouri passed a law. Was this a Missouri law only?
They are using your son as a bate target for future cases from what I can tell. I can sympothize with court costs. In my case I had to fork out over $16,000 overall maybe more.
Basically all I can say is try to be calm as hard as it can be. Keep some faith because that is majorily needed in a crisis time.
When I had mine I had to stay calm and clear. If I got all depressy things just seemed to worsen. Have hope things will fix themselves in the end. Just keep on fighting the good fight.
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Post by TheMasterGeek on Dec 21, 2005 2:25:27 GMT -5
And this is exactly what we meant by "abuse". The road to hell is often paved with good intentions.
Yup, just ask the inhabitants of Miranda. All their government wanted was a "world without sin" and they killed them all.
Well, except about a few thousand residents.
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Post by Charisma69 on Dec 21, 2005 2:30:02 GMT -5
See, the problem is it's too hard to pass a law like that and not have it affect the innocent.
And since the law is on the books the judge has to prosecute every case by those laws.
That's what happened to my son. The Judge didn't look like he wanted to convict him but since the law is written the way it is he really didn't have a choice.
He can't let Enzo get off with a warning because you know the real criminals lawyers will use that as precedent to get their clients off. So innocent children have to suffer - and their parents right along with them.
I'm out $1,013 so far in legal costs for Enzo's case - and that's with a Public Defender. Not to mention all the hours lost at work since I was so restricted in the hours I can work - and I'm still restricted now.
This is a living nightmare and it won't be over anytime soon. Enzo is on probation indefinitely - basically as long as they want him to be with a minimum of Six Months.
He has to be perfect at school and everywhere in order to get off probation. His probation officer deliberately bated him at our first meeting, just trying to make him angry. Right there in front of me. I was too shocked to know what to do.
I'm going to have to get a small tape recorder for my son to record every meeting with his Juvenile Officer so I can protect him from abuse.
Did they do your son on a state level law or is this the federal one? You mentioned Missouri passed a law. Was this a Missouri law only?
They are using your son as a bate target for future cases from what I can tell. I can sympothize with court costs. In my case I had to fork out over $16,000 overall maybe more.
Basically all I can say is try to be calm as hard as it can be. Keep some faith because that is majorily needed in a crisis time.
When I had mine I had to stay calm and clear. If I got all depressy things just seemed to worsen. Have hope things will fix themselves in the end. Just keep on fighting the good fight.
It is a Missouri Law - Missouri Statute Section 574.115 to be exact. You can read it if you click the link in my other post and scroll to the bottom of the page - though I did copy it into my post as well.
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Post by GreatMuppetyNick on Dec 21, 2005 2:30:55 GMT -5
Yup, just ask the inhabitants of Miranda. All their government wanted was a "world without sin" and they killed them all.
Well, except about a few thousand residents.
Yes, because that is so much better than dying.
Point made.
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Post by Rebelman on Dec 21, 2005 2:32:43 GMT -5
Did they do your son on a state level law or is this the federal one? You mentioned Missouri passed a law. Was this a Missouri law only?
They are using your son as a bate target for future cases from what I can tell. I can sympothize with court costs. In my case I had to fork out over $16,000 overall maybe more.
Basically all I can say is try to be calm as hard as it can be. Keep some faith because that is majorily needed in a crisis time.
When I had mine I had to stay calm and clear. If I got all depressy things just seemed to worsen. Have hope things will fix themselves in the end. Just keep on fighting the good fight.
It is a Missouri Law - Missouri Statute Section 574.115 to be exact. You can read it if you click the link in my other post and scroll to the bottom of the page - though I did copy it into my post as well.
Okey dokey I will check the link out and see what the link says about this.
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Post by Darkchylde on Dec 21, 2005 6:24:59 GMT -5
They are terrorists. They terror people. We either terror them or they terror us. I would prefer we terror them to keep them off our backs. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Just thought I would point that out.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Dec 29, 2005 13:02:27 GMT -5
About two pages ago is where I would typically have pointed out the following - Our country's legal system was founded on the principle that it is better for ten men to go free than for one innocent man to suffer wrongful imprisonment. (Original sexist phrasing left intact ) In this day and age, any argument of patriot act or anti-terrorism legislation must begin with the fairly fundamental question - Do we still hold this to be true?
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Post by Aunt Arlene on Dec 29, 2005 16:29:16 GMT -5
About two pages ago is where I would typically have pointed out the following - Our country's legal system was founded on the principle that it is better for ten men to go free than for one innocent man to suffer wrongful imprisonment. (Original sexist phrasing left intact ) In this day and age, any argument of patriot act or anti-terrorism legislation must begin with the fairly fundamental question - Do we still hold this to be true?
I don't have many heroes left, but Earl Warren is still one of them.
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