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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 11:05:15 GMT -5
He just means that it's confusing to know exactly what guidelines to use about when we can assume that God is speaking metaphorically, and when it's meant literally.
Because if we allow for the possibility that sometimes god is talking metaphorically, then we start having to ask ourselves when he (she?) is and when we're meant to take things as literal. Personally, I have to say that 'breathed the world into being' sounds metaphoric to me. And what's more, quite a lovely metaphor really. Very poetic.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 11:07:46 GMT -5
AS long as we're all respectful, I'm cool with people only wanting to participate during the half of the week that reflects their mindset.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 11:16:02 GMT -5
You know the question that just occured to me-
From God's perspective, does it even matter if he meant this metaphorically or if he literally spoke the world into being? It seems like ultimately the point is the same either way - We and everything around us were created by god. Therefore the sin of putting yourself up on god's level stems from the simple fact that everything we are is derivative from him. (And I'm just going to use male pronouns because it's quick and easy. I hope everyone knows I'm not trying to be sexist. If english had ever bothered to evolve a good gender non-specific pronoun- but... lost philological battle there. ANyway.)
SO....
I think the underline points of these chapters remain profoundly unaffected regardless of whether it's meant metaphorically or literally. Am I crazy on this?
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Post by dEz on May 16, 2006 11:16:46 GMT -5
*smiles on*
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Post by Rebelman on May 16, 2006 12:02:23 GMT -5
G-d surely was not talking through the serpent, though, just to be clear. That's your read on it, that the serpent was actually Shai-tan the adversary, yes?
Nothing's confusing to me about the first three chapters of Genesis, beyond your saying some parts are literal and others figurative. You explained that and I understand.
But like you and Bango are uncomfortable/unwilling to discuss the Bible as a work of literature, I'm unable to see it as having been wholly written by G-d, so will just have less to say in the first part of the week, as you and he have less to say during that portion of the discussion.
I'm just biding my time. I was saying that things you don't normally see happen in creatures as well. I didn't say God was speaking through the serpent because the serpent was deceptive. I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say. the Evil had to make the man fall and satan worked through serpent. Thats pretty literal. Our minds can't conceive of a lot of things.
the LORD used His Spirit to make the Word so it is not just works of literature but an account of the world from God. We can't fully understand Him because we are not that powerful.When we die we turn into dust, in the Creation account it says God breathed life into them and made them living souls. Just as we were made from dust we return to our original form when we no longer live here.
God is creative, he created us. Who would have ever thought of making us look like this and have a world that looks like this? The LORD created it all.Yep you are right everything derived from Him. Sin did not. That did not come at all. Because in the beginning we had no sin. We were perfected. Sin puts us way below God's levels. But as you can see the LORD had compassion despite that major hurt He felt when that all occurred. All part of the LORD's sovereign plan to redeem the world.
It still seems pretty literal to me. And you are not crazy because I still love you anyway mister.
Some examples of metaphors and symbols would be in dreams like in Joseph and Jacob's case later on in Genesis. Or in the Prophets with the prophecies. Those are clear cut not literal but ways to show how things were made.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 12:19:43 GMT -5
In response to -
"When we die we turn into dust, in the Creation account it says God breathed life into them and made them living souls. Just as we were made from dust we return to our original form when we no longer live here.
God is creative, he created us. Who would have ever thought of making us look like this and have a world that looks like this? The LORD created it all."
That's all fair enough, and definitely the clear point of the first three chapters of Genesis. It still doesn't address the issue of HOW the Lord created it all, by which I mean the metaphor v. literal question, but like I said in a previous post, I don't know that that really affects the reading of these verses. Does it?
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 12:20:36 GMT -5
You do make a fair point with the 'we return to dust' issue being an indicator that that part should be read literally, in that the implication is if we return there we must have come from dust originally.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 12:21:55 GMT -5
Your post also begs the question - If God created all of this. And therefore God created the serpent...
then didn't God technically create sin?
Hang on, I'm looking up the passage right now...
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 12:24:33 GMT -5
Genesis 3:1 - The Serpent, which was the most cunning of all the creatures the Lord God had made...
-Oxford Study Bible, revised English edition.
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Post by dEz on May 16, 2006 12:26:54 GMT -5
That's all fair enough, and definitely the clear point of the first three chapters of Genesis. It still doesn't address the issue of HOW the Lord created it all, by which I mean the metaphor v. literal question, but like I said in a previous post, I don't know that that really affects the reading of these verses. Does it? Overall, I believe the Lord only gives to you that you may comprehend. "HOW the Lord created" is never further discussed as I recall and (correct me if Im wrong here) because It's more the WHY that is the central foundation for the scriptures. IMO Tho this information may have helped to satisfy the scientific minds who believe in the big bang theory of how the world was started. Etc. . Carry on.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 12:29:03 GMT -5
We love Dez. Yes we do.
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Post by dEz on May 16, 2006 12:35:31 GMT -5
We love Dez. Yes we do. Oooooh! In a completely "girlfriend" sorta way of course.
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Post by Rebelman on May 16, 2006 12:43:17 GMT -5
I still see it as literal. but okey dokey mister
Also a good example of literal. Also look at birthing pains. That was actually a curse. That is pretty literal and I think all woman can vouch for that one. Plus the entire world set up is literal. Its all the same as it was then as it is now
The LORD is sovereign which means all knowing so he know right then what was going to happen. We know He desire us to be Holy and after that it puts a hinderance. The LORD knew we were going to sin but did not force us to sin. See the difference?
The serpent is cunning and was satan. He is very cunning and wants to be like God that is why he told Eve all that to make her to do it. Look how sin operates today. Cunning and sneaky just like a snake. That is literal Satan. Trying to cun and destroy.
I know in my life Satan tries that sneakiness and can make it sound so appealing but that is where the LORD upholds and brings deliverance.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 13:31:18 GMT -5
But see, that's what I'm saying - It flat out states that god created the serpent. As in interesting side note - when is the first mention of satan in the old testament? He didn't get a mention in the first three chapters of genesis.
And all this keeps leading me back to - What the heck was the serpent actually trying to accomplish? The text describes him as 'cunning' but it seems to me that the only goal we can attribute to him was to completely hose up the whole Paradise deal. And that's not so much cunning as blind vandalism. Cunningly performed vandalism, sure. But I wish we had some greater indication of what the serpent was hoping to get out of all this.
OK, re-reading your post - The serpent wanted to be like god. So it was just a desire to control things?
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on May 16, 2006 13:33:16 GMT -5
And now I'm kind of musing on authorial intent. Specifically, If God wrote the bible word for word as it exists now, why is he telling us this story? Is it just a 'Look how good you could have had it, but no, you had to go and mess it up?'
I don't think so, personally. I do have a theory about it, but I'm interested to see what you guys think about the issue.
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