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Post by tjaman on Apr 1, 2006 13:21:49 GMT -5
S2x14 - THE THIN DEAD LINEPyleansDontLeaveMe wrote:
Yay! I love the Angel's day out with Lorne qualities of Happy A. But NOTHING compares with Zombie Cops!Charisma69 wrote:
Zombie cops, can't wait until tonights eppy tjaman wrote:
Cordy: We could go get a Map of the Stars and track down Steven Seagal.
Y'know, this episode is so much better on rewatching it. What a great eppy.
It's, of course, sad that Angel never got to stop W&H and that thing they were planning. But the drive to get out there and help those hopeless was just too strong.
Cordy: Nothing says "I'm onto you" by being on the receivng end of a violent police beating.
OK, Cordy, it took Wes getting shot in the gut. What's it gonna take for you to drag that stick from out your bottom and accept an olive branch. If you compared notes, you might find a number of remarkable similarities about your evening.
Wes did have a good getting shot scene. And the roundhouse decapitation. Very cool.
Kate: Don't even joke about that in this building, no matter how immortal you think you are.
Night of the Living Cops: Next stop, donut shop. It's true, zombies can go anywhere. Especially when you try to barricade the window with an armchair that is lower than the sill, Cordy. Sheesh!
Actually, the other part of this is, why stop the ambulance, Gunn? Wes has been shot in the tummy, and the hospital is where they can fix that. Not the shelter, you big, lovable dolt, you.
Cordy: He got his degree in dumb planning at Angel University. He studied at the feet of the master of planning dumbly.
Cordy should check in when she's managed to survive a few centuries. Just saying.
Remarkably well preserved, these zombies.
And that Sharp woman, with the upgraded family eyecare plan? "I'll pay you whatever it takes." I think they should probably have gotten that on tape somehow.
I do like Cordy's instincts. "What can I do to help?" Very grow'd up from where she worked at the dress shop.
Actually, I see where they had to stop at the shelter because Gunn had to lip off to a drug dealer. Too bad he couldn't have run into him anywhere else
And Kate, looking up the crime stats for 45th Street. "This is what we've just given back to this community."
You ... prefer the violent zombies?
It's nice Angel saved the day and barely realizes it.
I did like this episode. A lot of cl@ssic zombie horror shots. A nice statement against police brutality and an adorable -- if oddly timed -- sermon on civic responsibility (Gunn to Jackson).
And I think Cordy will come around. angelusfan wrote: zombie cops L.A.P.D's finest aint they? bitterman wrote:
I have this horrible feeling that this is only the beginning of Wes' suffering. Feigy Pants wrote:
Oh I know what you mean B'man. I wonder how things will change for him now that he's been shot? I mean I hear stuff like that can really toughen up a person.tjaman wrote:
Or drive him to the dark side. bitterman wrote:
Wes?! Yeah, right. Like he's the dark-side type. He's too chickensh1t to ever be bad. I'm just afraid he's going to snap and do something nutso. Lot's of issues inside those large frontal lobes...
I like seeing Chanterelle/Lily/Anne, but I wonder why she appeared? Other than the continuity thing back to Buffy, of course.
You'd think her shelter would be a little spiffier after all that cash from Blood Money. tjaman wrote:
I dunno, b'guy, he was a Rogue Demon Hunter, and we still don't know what a rogue demon is.
And she did replace the ping pong table.
Probably doesn't wanna tip off W&H flashing lotsa dosh so fast.
I think Anne showing up where she does makes a lot of sense. She showed up as a drifter/runaway with lots of delusions and she found a way to deal with them. She's also been to a hell dimension and she knows how bad things can get.
Anne's a good side character. bitterman wrote:
Yeah, she is, and a good egg to boot.
As far as Cordy giving Angelus-lite the business, I think that's a natural reaction on her part. All she's ever known is Salty Goodness Angel and the Big Bad Angelus; this version (and even dru couldn't 'read' him, although she dropped a 'daddy?' right before the b-b-q started) is completely strange to her. In that context, in the only frame of reference that she has to go by, this 'Angel' is horribly, horribly wrong. He's her fella (even if they don't know it yet) and he always, ALWAYS does the right thing, as long as he's not wearing the leather pants.
Maybe her scolding is exactly what A-L needs to hear right now, while Wes is trying to keep his guts in his belly? Charisma69 wrote:
Well, she couldn't be all that obvious about having the money. I mean Wolfram & Hart would certainly catch on if suddenly the shelter had tons of money.
The Plan
Gunn: All right, look, the plan's simple. I want you to roll the camcorder, wait for the cops to h@ssle us.
Anne: How do you know they will?
Gunn: 'Cause we'll be the one's walking while black.
I can't say too much about this episode, Tj already said everything I wanted to say
I did like the part at the end where Wes asks Gunn "Is this morphine?" Gunn says yes then Wes says "Well its bloody lovely". That line was great.
This episode had some great bonding moments between Gunn and Wesley. Cordy had some great lines, but she was very harsh with Angel. You would think she would be happy to know that deep down Angel really does care about them, despite the fact that he fired them. I did have a point but I forgot what it was
And didn't you just love the continuity with Cordelia's shirt? You know the shirt Angel gave away to Anne for the shelter in Blood Money. Cordy had actually worn the shirt in Reunion. Even a simple shirt can have a story arc on Angel. angelusfan wrote: Cordy- Hey, Gunn graduated with a major in dumb planning from Angel University. He sat at the feet of the master and learned well how to plan dumbly." Angel University: cl@sses for the '04 fall semester 10. Poetry by Angel (Thou who abruptly as a knife, didst come into my heart: by Baudelaire) 9. War History by Angel (seen 14 not including Vietnam---they never declared it) 8. Drama by Cordelia, Wesley, Spike and maybe Angel (who knew Angel had the acting chops) 7. Mechanics by Fred (so not a toaster) 6. Card Counting by Fred (blackjack) 5. Dimension Jumping by Illyria and Cordelia 4. First aid by Cordelia and Oz (it may be 6th grade but we can improvise) 3. Latin by Wesley (who's Latin sucks by the way) 2. Marketing by Gunn (selling ones soul for a truck without AC) 1. The Science of Backstabbing (taught by all) bitterman wrote:
Who's Fred?Charisma69 wrote:
Who's Illyria?Angelusfan wrote: a later teacher who will come in the fall of 04 i got it off of TSILA so if theres any questions talk to them tjaman wrote:
I LOVE that list, a'fan. Very creative. angelusfan wrote: thanks it was mine from TSILA PyleansDontLeaveMe wrote:
Maybe I just have a protected perspective on the whole police issue, but on watching this ep I always find it very very difficult to truly fault the police chief. These were his friends that have died and come back as zombies, remember. You can see his pain in his line about how they were good cops.
It's understandable that he'd want vengeance. And that he'd crack down too hard and become the bad guy himself.
interesting discussion to be had here about the rights of the individual v. society. I'm so glad that they addressed the issue but didn't give a pat solution to it, you know?
Disappointes still in the drug dealer guy. Not that I don't believe that there are people just like him out there, it's just... ME usually does such a nice job subverting stereotype...wish there had been more individual and less cliche here.
I hear next weeks ep. has a HUGE cliffhanger ending... tjaman wrote:
I think Los Angeles could save a lot of money by implementing a zombie force. Course, they'd have to make sure they didn't activate the brain-sucking zombies and that they didn't get out of hand, and obviously every so often a zombie would break and need to be replaced, but it could be a good move for them.
Just so long as the Zombie Corps all got, y'know, a better grasp on the whole "civil liberties" thing. PyleansDontLeaveMe wrote:
You know, that's a fair point. I don't think that Chief even TRIED to teach them how to properly Mirandize... tjaman wrote:
Well, Miranda falls a little short when you're actively beating the crap out of a guy. Just sayin'
Now, Carmen Miranda, on the other hand ...PyleansDontLeaveMe wrote:
I was read my Carmen Miranda rights once... tjaman wrote:
You have the right to rhumba while balancing a gigantic fruit basket on your head ... ?PyleansDontLeaveMe wrote:
Yes, that's the fellow. bitterman wrote:
WHOA! I am suddenly inspired to create a 'great come-on lines you have heard' thread.
...
(wondering how long that one's going to wriggle on the hook) PyleansDontLeaveMe wrote:
so many ways to go.... so many ways to go.... angelusfan wrote: but please dont go any way, thank you
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Post by tjaman on Apr 1, 2006 13:28:12 GMT -5
S2x15 - REPRISEtjaman wrote:
Angel: "I couldn't help but notice the goats. Lotsa goats. Goats, many."
And that's not the only Buffy reference we got tonight. I've always thought of that as a line she would say, y'know? Sounds like her a lot.
No fan of both shows could possibly miss the parallels between Angelus awakening in Buffy and what we just saw at the end. Although I'm pretty sure Darla doesn't provide anyone with Perfect Happiness™. Unless she's charging for it, anyway. }
I wonder what Darla was after with that glove and that ring. What did she think she was going to accomplish? Defeating the Senior Partners? Then the question we need to ask ourselves is this: Why?
I loved the reference with Denver, the bookstore guy, btw. He looked plenty old enough. People are pretty well preserved in California. Maybe he had work done.
I also loved how Angel denied having been of any help. Very cool. Oh, Angel, you help in your own way.
But the most shocking thing of all ...
I think Mr. Nasty may have been right.
* record scratch * WHA???
No, really. In direct response to this program, what Holland Manners said in the lift, I think Jasmine stood poised to erase all evil from everyone's hearts.
She could've won. She could've beaten the Senior Partners.
I have these visions of Mr Nasty leaping pantless around his home whooping.
She, as a Rogue Power, could've decided it was time to manifest on Earth and eradicate the evil of the world. And then who cares who's dead, so long as the Senior Partners are no more.
It was a singularly dishonest way of going about it. If, instead of wasting time playing with her puppet minions, she'd have just eaten all of them and sent out glorious waves of love, she might have done it.
Except that there'd have been all of that evil in her heart, the pride, the unstoppable ambition, that big big temple.
I don't know. It has raised a great deal of doubt in my mind. I don't know what the world would be like without any evil, and I don't think I could know, because I'd probably be eaten and dead ...
Actually, scratch that. I'm very happy she was punched through the head. Kudos, Connor.
And you can stop the cavorting mid-prance, Mr N. I was just funnin' ya.
Wesley: "Things are going to get better for all of us."
Well, we can see why he doesn't get the visions.
And oh, it's too sad Gremmy isn't here for the Lilahlalalala! So much fun. "Stake that bitca!" Remarkable.
And I'm gonna miss Kate. I'm the single member of the Kate fan club, but I just love that girl. She was so completely broken up by everything. It's really too sad.
Now ... why did the demons kill the Sharps? That seems unnecessary. They could've bred the heck out of them. Extraneous eyes all around.
But the review ...
OK, that's a Senior Partner, right, materializing in this realm? Joss had no idea what they were, did he? DAMMIT Joss, the SECOND you thought of a Senior Partner you should've figured out what it was. Later a "Mr. Suvato" gets mentioned, and that just seems really unlikely if we're talking about the "Wolf, Ram and Hart."
How'd they miss Darla at the ceremony? If it's just vampire detectors, they should've been chattering like mad.
Angel: "In the larger sense, I don't give a crap."
Holland, so good to see you again.
Holland: "It's always something, isn't it."
Well, with you around, absolutely.
Holland: "We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as winning."
"Redefinition" was a great title. People's lives were redefined -- Wes broke up with Virginia (it was that video from the fund-raiser wasn't it. It got back to her, I'm sure of it) , Kate got fired, Gunn left everyone (what the hell was he up to all day?), Lilah has no reason to ever trust Lindsey again, Darla was going for redemption on some level or another (for whatever reason), and The Game was redefined.
Welcome to hell, ladies and gentlemen, with hate and evil in all of our hearts, making us do things, making us write bad checks and screw farm animals. The devil makes us do it.
Bull. However, interesting theory, no?
Holland: "If there was no evil in people, they'd all be angels."
One moment please, however, quick redirect: Duh.
* sigh * Ah well. As Angel said, "None of it matters."
So then you bed a vampire.
Meh, I think he'll be OK. How 'bout you? angelusfan wrote: i'm here Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Angel" writer, David Fury, plays the role of the man sacrificing the goats in the first scene of this episode. now you can tell they're running short on staff I mean if it was anybody else I would just say 'get laid already! Wesley: Cordelia... Cordelia: (pacing) But, no, not him. One decent boff and he switches to evil psycho vamp. Which, in a way, would be better for everyone. Better for him because he'd get some, and better for us because then we could (makes a staking motion) stake him afterwards. well he did get some so are they going to have to stake him now? The Host: I think the general angst is not so much about the review, but more about the reviewer. And, let's just say it ain't Rex Reed. Angel: What is it? The Host: It's evil... it's dark... it's merciless. Actually, now that I say it out loud, it sounds an awful lot like Rex, doesn't it? now that funny Lorne: Look, all these messy rites and rituals crashing all over town? They don't mean anything. Nervous children trying to score as many brownie points as they can before daddy gets home. I got news – Daddy? Not impressed. daddy's never impressed wow what some lust sceens at the end i wounder if he will still have a soul sence he stop careing long enough to bang darla Charisma69 wrote:
I loved the teaser in this one. Having people making sacrifices by following the directions in a do-it-yourself kit. Too funny.
And the appearance of David Fury as First Worshiper was a nice touch. He's had several on-screen Buffyverse appearances.
WARNING POSSIBLE SEASON 4 SPOILERS
And Wesley sums up nicely our questions about how nobody in L.A. notices the stuff happening in Season 4.
Wesley: Clearly it's easier for the Sharps to cast us as con artists, rather than accept the grim reality that Skilosh spawn nearly hatched full-grown out of their child's skull.
Gunn:Gee--wonder why.
END SPOILERS
Wesley is really starting to show some good leadership skills. I hope we see that continue.
So does anyone think that Angel never really came back to our reality. Just because L.A. looked the same when he got off the elevator doesn't mean it was the same. It was a one-way trip after all
For those interested here is a line that was cut from the elevator scene that I found in my trusty Angel Casefiles Volume I book:
So do you guys think Angel lost his soul? I really don't see how Darla could give him that perfect moment of happiness. angelusfan wrote: the speech that holland gave made alot of sence we do all have some evil in us and what angel needs to do is admit it that even he with a soul he has evil in him see im taken care of cause i admit i have evil in me and aint ashame to admit it
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Post by tjaman on Apr 1, 2006 13:30:25 GMT -5
bitterman wrote:
Being somewhat of a curmudgeon, I'm going to talk about what I DIDN'T like about this episode, first.
I didn't like the way Kate was written out of the series (and i don't think you're the only member of her fanclub, tj). Sure, the character had serious Daddy issues (who doesn't in the jossverse? well, maybe spike... or not). And sure, the dipping into the supernatural aspects of LA Policing were too much for her, and falling for a guy she eventually finds out what in her World View is part of the problem certainly didn't help. And in the real world, I know NBC was writing her a big check to head over to the L&O franchise, and there were schedules and contracts to honor. But still, I just didn't like the attempted suicide; I didn't like the weakness in the character; I didn't like the Easy Way Out aspect. It seemed to easy, too cliche, even though cops are one of the professions with the most suicides. I guess I always expected more from Lockley, more character, more depth, more something. Too bad.
I didn't like the Darla arc. Sure, it's really convenient for her to show up at the bookstore and mess things up, but for what purpose? Blackmail? Personal gain? Altruism? Quite a bit left to wonder about regarding her motivations. I guess the idea was to build tension for the last scene. Who knows.
I loved, LOVED the Angel/Fang Gang interaction in this ep. Cordy is so angry, so devastated by Her Guy acting like such a jerk (will she ever be ready to admit her feelings for him, or his for her?). I wonder where that relationship will go, now. But I doubt the ending will be happy. Wes is just done with the big a-hole. Are we seeing a different Wes now? The Ponce from Buffy S3 wouldn't have dared said a word in from of Angelus Lite; this one has enough stones to stand up for the gang and literally rip his guts open.
Lilah. I loved her visceral fear over the consequences of the SP showing up. I loved her reaction to A-L taking out her bodyguards. I loved her reaction to Darla (too similar, maybe?). I just love Lilah. She should run for President.
Something I wonder about: when the elevator ride with Holland is done, are they really back in the same place they started? Part of me just can't rule out the idea that W&H isn't past putting a whammy on Angel and throwing him in some alternate-universe thingy, they aren't to be trusted. Can anything after this ep really be trusted? I guess we'll find out if the storylines start getting more and more improbable.
Overall a good borderlining on great episode. Even with the cheesy 'gasping' moment at the end. We know Darla can't make an ensouled Angel happy, no matter how bad off he is; maybe it's part of the W&H enchantment?
angelusfan wrote: to c69 i dont think the curse is really about PREFECT HAPPIENESS as told by Uncle Enios "one moment where the soul that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts and that soul is taken from him" i think this is what angel is hoping for. he rather feel evil than nothing at all which is how he went into the lust sceen with darla Charisma69 wrote:
I know what Angel was trying to do with Darla. I was just speculating as to whether or not it would work.
I don't think it will because I really don't think Angel can experience happiness with Darla, especially given his current mental state.
Looks like we had the same idea B'man Check out my post on the subjectangelusfan wrote: like i said i dont think it has to do with happieness i think it has to do with the soul no longer bugging him and given the state that he's in now it could go either way i mean he could have stop caring long enough to do darla and lose his soul or he could have had the soul bugging he so much that doing darla is the only way to help lessen the pain of his soul and yes c69 and b'man they're right back where they started its just angel now sees thing differently now he sees that no matter what every single being has evil in them including him and that no matter how hard he tries he aint going to make things prefect bitterman wrote:
I saw that right after I finished my ramblings. Great Minds do indeed think alike.
And fools seldom differ.
Speaking of Kate, it's weird talking about her and then seeing her in the L&O spots on TNT. angelusfan wrote: speaking of kate, does she seem a little paler ever sence shourd of rahmon? and what about those gray eyes of hers is she trying to say something here tjaman wrote:
Sorry I haven't been able to participate. Just finished watching Denis Leary knock another one out of the park in "Rescue Me."
I think Angel's in LA, but that is a hard sell. We watched the elevator physically go down. But then, hell isn't a physical place, so "down" doesn't get you there. Even so, after all that down, it's interesting to me that they hadn't moved.
Nothing on the Pantless Whooping™? * sigh * I try so hard ...
Lorne did kick @ss in this eppy, a'fan; thanks for including him. He's so mysterious.
As for their running out of staff, I think Fury just likes to take a turn in front of the cameras every so often. Look at all the extras in the lawyer scene they could've cast.
And I also loved the Dark Ritual By Numbers Kit™ they were using. Funny. "The pre-blessed knife? I didn't see it in the box." tjaman wrote:
Oh yes, Darla. The tart ex machina. I'm pretty sure Julie Benz had no idea what her motivation was for any of her actions in this eppy, tell the truth.
Wes was definitely redefined, poor guy. But be fair, it was his book Angel was stealing.
Cordy: I don't even know what you are anymore. Angie: I'm a vampire. Look it up.
Cordy: But you have the book.
Hey, that coulda been fun.
Or "Yeah, I'll try under 'J' for JACK@ss!"
PyleansDontLeaveMe wrote:
I had, I confess, forgotten all about Kate's part of the plot.
For personal reasons, her storyline this time around pretty much eclipsed everything else about this episode for me. angelus wrote: hey just a question why did we started this thread midway threw season2(Redefinition) why wasnt it started from the begining? tjaman wrote:
a'fan: We all wanted to watch an eppy with Darla, so we actually started with "Darla" (seemed like a gimme). That was in b'guys "Thread With the Impossibly Long Name" Then I started this new thread and he jibbed at the name but he seems to be using it.
And of course I meant "Reprise." Sorry. Need to keep a better eye on my EppyGuide. "Redefinition" still seems like it would've been a good name for this eppy, however. PyleansDontLeaveMe wrote:
Personally I suspect that they chose 'Reprise' to go with 'Reunion' and 'Redefinition' more than for any intrinsic value of the name itself. bitterman wrote:
Hmmm, have we analyzed all the episode names for the series yet? Might be a good project for the fall. tjaman wrote:
TS: Oh, forgive me. Darla wasn't a streetwalker? If not, it's only because they weren't paved. Liam was a slut in life, too, of course, but he was more of a devoted amateur.
For no reason at all I'm misremembering a Python sketch in which "Biggles Dictates a Letter":
Secre-tart: I am not a courtesan. Biggles: "Courtesan," oh, aren't we grand. Harlot's not good enough for us, eh? Concubine, paramour, filles de joie, that's what we're not. Well, I'll tell you one thing, my fine fellow. You are a bit of tail.
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Post by tjaman on May 7, 2006 10:40:46 GMT -5
S2x16 - EPIPHANYLet's take a moment to enjoy Lorne in his fabulous gold bathrobe.
"Keep your pants on -- oh, I see we're a bit late with that advice." "If you'd taken much longer to hit your bottom, I'd have kicked it for you." 'If you're just gonna switch back to brood mode, I think we'd prefer you evil 'cause, y'know. Leather pants." "Kill her -- give her cab fare. Who can say these days?"
Nice Zuzu's petals reference, btw -- on the same day I liken c'golfa to George Bailey.
Syn-chro-ni-ci-ty ...
So ... a Skilosh army can be scattered by a battered old truck? So ... a Skilosh can gestate and be nearly "done" within hours? 'Cause it took forever with that little girl.
I was really struck by how disorienting that had to be for poor Cordy. I mean, all that visual information is just pouring in without context on top of everything she's already getting from, y'know, her own eyes.
Must be like having a vision.
Then the parallel between what Angel did to Darla and what Kate did to Angel. The cold "Thanks. Get out" thing. I hadn't noticed that before.
It was nice seeing the FangGangers working together again, even with all the trust issues. I couldn't believe Wes was able to stand at all, though, because he couldn't even reach his gun to protect his life a few moments earlier.
I loved the bonding between Gunn and "The Wheelèd One," however. Very cool.
Darla: "It was my payment."
Lindsey certainly demanded a lot of details about making love with Angel, yes?
I did enjoy the metaphysical SLAM on Darla's snootch. "You're not evil? I don't accept that. I been around for 400 years and before that, I did this professionally."
Hm. I should have such perfect "despair" with Julie Benz.
Wes should be able to say "@ss" on network television.
I thought the Powers might have been a little late with that whole, y'know, vision thing. Think they got tied up in traffic?
Wes' commentary on Cordelia's character (misremembered) -- she's seen this city's pain and because of who she is, she has to do something about it -- is another piece of the puzzle proving that SPOILER ALERT Skip is lying in S4 END SPOILER ALERT "You turned away. She does not have that luxury."
Wes can be one stone cold mother.
I'm so glad Kate's found a kind of peace with Angel and herself. "I was cut a huge break ... I never invited you in." I've no doubt we're gonna be seeing a lot more of that girl in coming episodes.
And I loved Angel's response: "If nothing we do matters, then the only thing that matters is what we do."
Brilliant! I want to stitch that on pillows.
Anyway, I really loved "Epiphany" -- especially Angel deciding to come work for them. Angel catching Cordy at the end was a little trite, but it's a start on the road back to trust.
Very, very nice. angelusfan wrote: i really enjoy Epiphany i love how it now learn that angel can have sex with out looseing his soul ok so when the host makes the statement "keep your pants on..." how does he know that info is it really writen that deep on angels forehead? the whole lindesy run over angel is funny as all get out though i do wounder how does he mannages to drive a stick shift i drive one and i have to put my hand around the gear shift in order to shift gears how is he doing it with that a plastic hand it was funny wacthing gunn and wesley try to save cordy and failed poorly Kate: I think maybe we're not alone in this. Angel: Why? Kate: 'Cause I never invited you in ok so i get that it was the tptb that more than likely let him in how can we be sure that kate didnt really die i think that could be explain a little better but all in all it was a good ep i really enjoyed it i hope the crew trust are able to heal tjaman wrote:
She might actually have been dead -- that may have been the point. Angel revived her (that's, of course, supposed to be impossible), but at that point, she's alive. So the spell that keeps vampires out of houses they've not been invited into ... ? He shoulda been flung out the door. Then of course Kate would've collapsed and hit her head and died for sure and he could wander around her house all he liked.
Yeah, the truck scene was very cool. Charisma69 wrote:
Darla: But we ...
Angel: Yes ...
Darla: ... and you ...
Angel: I know ...
Darla: Then I ...
Angel: Three times ...
Darla: You're not evil?
So many wonderful lines its hard to know where to begin.
Didn't I tell you guys that Angel was going to have an Epiphany?
I loved seeing Wesley try to get his gun down from the top of the closet while being in a wheelchair. Priceless.
Angel: I've never been here before, Wesley! You have to invite me in!
Wesley: Well, perhaps if you'd shown more interest ...
Then Angel saves Wesley and it's off to the angelmobile to save the others.
Angel: You know, it's kind of funny. I recently got a gut wound myself. Not a gunshot, like you got there, but, uh, it was kind of an antique ... sword. (beat) Is what it was. (beat) Went deep. (nothing.) Yes it did. Hey, guess who stabbed me?
Wesley Dar-la?
Angel: Yeah.
Don't you just love the awkwardness of this exchange? Angel is trying so hard.
I love it when Angel suggests that Cordy is out with friends. Wesley counters that it shows how little Angel knows about her. What's funny is he just found out the same thing earlier that evening.
Gunn: So what's he doin' here?
Angel: I saw the Host at Caritas. He said my friends were in danger. (A dry beat, then:)
Gunn: So what's he doin' here?
Wesley: He had an epiphany.
So funny.
I love how Gunn is the one to think of checking her message pad, and the fact that Angel thinks he's referring to Cordy's apartment.
And then the whole thing with Lindsey running over Angel with his truck. Talk about jealousy.
That ends well, Angel smashes Lindsey's plastic hand.
Coulda been the other one. Just be glad I had an epiphany.
The whole thing with Kate at the end, and Angel working for the gang is just wonderful.
Overall a very good episode. Can't wait for next week.tjaman wrote:
Ooo ... you're psychic! angelusfan wrote: no i think she gets visions and i think there finally taking a toll on her tjaman wrote:
What the ... ?
Development: CORDY'S GOING HALF DEMON! angelusfan wrote: well this her second time she's pergnant in the angelverse, there has to be a reason why demons like her so much bitterman wrote:
*fields tj's meta-reference*
Think she talks to Mayor McCheese? tjaman wrote:
* fails to catch it, gamely goes for an entirely different joke *
Well, I wouldn't but that's because he's just DRUNK WITH POWER! bitterman wrote:
I would never, ever encourage anyone to d/l media from the internet, but S2 just happens to be getting posted in a.b.m.b-v-s right now. Reprise and Epiphany are complete, at least on the roadrunner servers.
Ok, just watched Epiphany again.
I have to say, in a post-Not Fade Away world, this is to me one of the saddest eps of the series. Wes' almost pathetic joy when Angel shows up. His speech to Angel about Cordy, what the visions are doing to her, and how much she's changed. Gunn and Wes and how they've bonded since Angel went a-hole. That one really puts the Fred/Illyria arc and Wes' stabbing of Gunn in perspective (two gut wounds a coincidence? don't think so).
And now they're all dead. Sad.
This one reinforces the theme of the series nicely. You can't despair, you have to keep fighting, even if you know it's futile and doesn't pay very well, in any sense of the word.
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Post by tjaman on May 7, 2006 10:48:53 GMT -5
S2x17 - DISHARMONYtjaman wrote:
Cordy: "You have great taste! You have ... a gay man's taste. And that's saying something! Clothes! I have new clothes!" * random giggling *
Ah, old friends.
I love the themes in this episode. And the ... oddness. So, is it worse to find out your best friend's a vampire than it is to find out she's gay?
What messages are we sending to the next generation?
Harmony. Cordy with a crossbow at her throat and her heart. A flick of a finger could've made S5 ... just the tiniest bit less loopy.
Harmony: "Cacaphony. That's pretty. What does it mean?"
So "The Way We Were" is in the 'verse. Cool.
Lorne said Cordy would show Harmony her destiny. She really didn't. Unless she got inspired to be an office manager or something (possible, I suppose).
All those vampires in the secretary pool. Those vampire detectors at W&H must be going nuts all the time.
Cordy letting her live was a little weird. But so is Harmony's evil. We all remember the Harmony gang, right? This was a strangely different Harmony than sauntered out of Spike's crypt in -- was it Triangle? I forget episodes.
I think it's entirely possible that Harmony Kendall had more soul than James Brown. Either that, or her sheer vapid cluelessness shackled her demon in a way few others could.
Harmony was ok in this eppy. She got Angel all hot for blood again -- interesting that it's so near the surface.
And the office situation was such a pretense. Angel's the Alpha. Wes respects it and Gunn resents it and Cordy's trying to act disinterested, but there's no way that awkward dynamic is possibly gonna last.
Meanwhile -- fun eppy. The pyramid "duck worshiping" motivational cult thingie was pretty good (although vamps running from that fight was just wrong -- they started running before the first vamp bit it, so to speak).
And I think they were listening in on our cost-cutting measures (even though we hadn't even started it -- G-d I miss that thread). When the key fell and they dusted that vamp? Looked like a sprinkle of Shower-to-Shower.
Oh well. One takes the fun where one can.
One final thought: "Touching! With the hands!!" PyleansDontLeaveMe Once again I give the best line to Wes with- "Yes, and while you're at it you can pick me up one of those 'sorry you got shot in the gut' bouquets"
I love it when Wes shows his br@ss. I hope it happens more in later seasons Charisma69 I have thoughts on Disharmony, just haven't had time for them. You know because of the whole school thing. What about you B'man, what's your excuse? Angelu§fan i havent been able to rewacth it cause of school but i will over the weekend hopefuly wacth it and will but up my thoughts Charisma69 and will but up my thoughts You're going to do what with your thoughts? Angelu§fan oh dear god i just saw that:) i am so out of it this week, i will put up my thought on disharmony i got to remember to read what i type before i post:) god im a moron grailwolf I've been told to do that with my thoughts on more than one occasion. bitterman I knew that one wasn't going to be allowed to just hang out in the wind like that... Angelu§fan i just got done watching disharmony and i have to say it was good to see willow on angel they need to have her over more often OK question so i thought in graduation harm got bit but with all that craziness she was sired? now thats weird what i cant believe is Cordy thinking harm is gay i mean come on she works for a with a vampire and yet she cant tell them apart makes me feel safe, not i just love how harm betrays them all in the end after angel has forward them not to mention when harm got angel thinking about his craving for blood was funny as all get out spoileri like the fact that the DVD has the original script so its funny to read the first part of the show and then the last part where harm is in Mexico end spoiler but over all this was a good comic ep to break up the serious thats been happing in the last few eps
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Post by tjaman on May 7, 2006 11:07:04 GMT -5
S2x18 - DEAD ENDCharisma69
Can I tell you guys how much I can't wait to watch Dead End tomorrow?
Too bad, I already told you.
I'm really looking forward to the eppy, the previews look great.
Charisma69
Hey gang, I caught an early viewing of the ep so here's my brilliant insights.
Loved the opening with Lindsey in bed sans shirt. Very pleasing to the eye.
Then cut to a guy stabbing himself in the eye.
Very graphic. Extremely graphic. Did I mention it was graphic?
I can really feel Cordelia's pain during that vision. Having a guy deoculate himself in surround sound is really a horrific thing to behold.
They did a great job filming and editing that sequence.
Then cut to Lilah and Lindsey. Looks like the senior partners are ready to let one of them go. There will be no more sharing of the Senior Vice President of Special Projects job.
Lilah seems paranoid, while Lindsey doesn't seem to give a crap.
To add to Lilah's paranoia Nathan summons Lindsey to his office. Looks like Lindsey is getting a reward. Now what could it possibly be?
A hand, Lindsey is getting a new hand - chock full of demony goodness. And evil, very evil.
Meanwhile Cynthia is walking eggshells around Cordy.
Wesley: Go ahead, probably best not to crowd her.
Angel: Me? You're the one in charge now.
Wesley: You're right. That's why I'm @ssigning this one to you.
The next day Lilah and Lindsey meet with chocolatier Irv Kraigle. Lindsey is doing great work, until he notices his evil hand is writing Kill Kill Kill all over his legal pad. Suddenly it's time to go.
Meanwhile back at Angel Investigations Angel is still trying to make Cordy feel better.
Cordelia: What is going on here?
Angel: I forgot what you liked.
Cordelia: Why didn't you ask me?
Angel: Well, you said why is everyone asking you if they can get you anything, and I didn't want to do that ...
Cordelia: So you did this instead?
Angel: Yup
Now didn't you expect a different reaction than this one?
Cordelia: I love you.
Angels reaction is a great big smile - which Cordy tells him he should do more often. A very great moment between them.
Next it's decided that Cynthia must go to Caritas. Apparently it's time for Angel to sing - which doesn't go over well with the gang.
Instead they find Lindsey already onstage singing. And he's good. Everyone in the place loves him - except Angel.
Very funny dialog with everyone gushing over Lindsey while Angel tries to pretend Lindsey isn't any good.
Cordelia: Hi. You probably don't remember me. Cordelia. I know you're evil and everything but that was just so amazing.
Gunn: That was kind of tight.
Wesley: Terrific, really.
Angel: Is everyone drunk?
Rock, country, ballad, pick a style already or something to that effect. Very funny.
Then guess what? Angel and Lindsey must team up on this one.
Lorne: Two enemies, one case, it's all coming together in a beautiful buddy movie kind of way.
Gunn: They're supposed to work together on this?
Lindsey: Work with him? Work with him?
Lorne: Am I the only one who saw Forty-Eight Hours?
Lindsey: I got a murderous hand on me and you're telling me to team up with the guy who cut mine off in the first place?
Lorne: I'm telling you what's what, sugar. What you do with it is up to you.
Lindsey: (to Angel) I see you outside of this club, I'm going to kill you.
So they of course go their separate ways. This eventually leads them both to the apartment of Bradley Scott's parole officer.
Lindsey arrives first and almost gets himself killed by Sam because he doesn't know the p@ssword.
Angel arrives just in the nick of time to save Lindsey which seems to piss him off.
They have a great buddy cop argument with Angel taunting Lindsey with Hey, you're chocking my lead. What are we? On the schoolyard?. Seriously funny stuff.
Sam: I'm not tellin' you zip. You can kill me but Wolfram & Hart'll do a lot worse.
Angel: Kill you? Why would I kill you ... when I could live off you for a month?
Sam: Dahhhhhh!
Angel: (pinches Sam's cheek) Mmmm, can't you just taste that butter fat?
Lindsey: You're really gross, you know that?
Completely priceless.
Now it's off to the Angelmobile and the address Sam finally spilled. Angel proceeds to annoy Lindsey on the way there. So very funny.
When they arrive the easily dispatch the guards and go down into a lab that any mad scientist would feel right at home.
Lindsey comes face-to-face with the man who's hand he now wheres as his own. What's worse Lindsey knows the guy. They used to work in the mail-room together. I'm sure it's not totally lost on Lindsey that he could have been the one who ended up there if circumstances would have been any different.
Bradley: Kill ... kill ...
Lindsey: Kill who? Who do you want me to kill?
Bradley: Kill ... me ... please.
Lindsey tells Bradley he is sorry then shuts off the life support.
Angel Investigations celebrate solving the case and we discover that Cordy is still in pain from the vision. That's not looking too good. I wonder it that'll be fixed?
I loved the ending of this episode. so many funny things happen.
Poor Lilah she's all high strung. She seems about ready to pull out the gun in her purse when Lindsey stops her.
Then Lindsey and his evil hand strut around the room terrorizing everyone. I loved it when he shot the guard in the foot and blamed it on his evil hand. Then he's wandering around waving the gun around with his evil hand shooting a few random items in the room.
But the best part is when he tells them why they should have promoted Lilah instead of him.
Me? I'm unreliable. I've got these evil-hand issues. And I'm bored with this crap. And besides, I'm leaving.
And then, just when you think it couldn't possibly get any better, he grabs Lilah's bum on the way out.
I totally loved the ending. The scene between Lindsey and Angel is very well acted. They seem to come to a sort of understanding to which Angel states:
Good, I'm glad I didn't have to do something immature here. Don't drive too fast now, lot of cops our there.
Cut to the back of Lindsey's truck as he drives away. A nice big sign that says Cops Suck.
I wonder if we'll ever get to see Lindsey again?
I'll leave you guys with some interesting tidbits from Angel The Casefile Volume 1:
L.A., the song Lindsey sing in Caritas, was written by David Greenwalt.
And here's a scene which was cut from the show:
Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Final Cut
A scene with Cordelia, Wesley, and Gunn observing Angel after his night our with Lindsey for signs of reversion to the dark side was cut for length.
Gunn: How you doin'?
Angel: (so dark and grim) How am I doin'? How am I doin'? How's it look like I'm doin'?
(The three exchange a look: uh-oh.)
Wesley: Angel ... you need to get a grip on yourself.
Angel: No, I need to get a grip on ... (grabs Wes) ... you!
(I'm not saying Wes holler exactly like a girl as Angel bursts out laughing.)
Angel: That was so great, the look on your faces.
Cordelia: That was not great. There was no greatness about that.
(she hits him with a book or something)
Angel: What, I can't have any fun?
Gunn: Didn't fool me.
(Gunn slips the stake he had in his hand back under the reception desk.)
And now I must head back to my night cl@ss. Yah me. tjaman
You analyzed the bejabbers out of it, Charisma69 -- up to and including beau coup portions of shirtless Christian Kane running around all over the screen. I was just gonna mention the sadness Lindsey projected in looking at his guitar, and the mad skills he evinced upon picking it up again.
I think I saw a flicker of ... something ... cross the Host's face while Lindsey was singing. He was enjoying the song and then ... a flicker of some ... unpleasantness. Kinda weird. Wonder what that was about.
Lilah: "You wanna shove the knife a little farther into my back? I still have some feeling in my legs."
Nervous, much?
Also, Angel's line to Lindsey in the car: "What with losing Darla ... and me, too, sort of ... as a place to focus your rage." That was a very different line without that ending to it.
Lindsey had two scenes in "Dead End" where he got to project an easy and capable brilliance in terms of legal strategy. It's a shame he won't, apparently, be coming 'round any more.
How creepy is Nathan Reed?
Yeah, Cordy's pain was very well done. It's so weird watching her acting on "Angel." Why can't this girl find a job?
Incidentally, I was also expecting a different response than "I love you." And I also liked Angel's smile afterwards too.
SPOILER For those time-travellers among us who've seen S5, it would've been interesting if they'd introduced the Doc Sparrow character in this episode. END SPOILER
In summary, I don't know why I didn't remember this as being the truly great episode it was. Angel reincorporating himself back into CYNTHIA, turning into a vamp to get info, really exploring and developing the heck out of Lindsey's character (sadly, just before he gets the boot), Lilah looking actually scared, that cool floaty shaman thingy, and a nice appearance by the Host.
This was some good eppy. Angelu§fan ok so my two cents more than likely wont be as long as these other ones but here they are *sips on beer brought over from the Hyperion* great to see Lindsey with his shirt off never can go wrong seeing the angel guys half naked ( and i guess it applies to the girls as well)*sips* it funny to see Lilah all scared and nervous here where in the past shes been all powerful and takes nothing from no one. its out of character for her but its still funny what a wonderful signing voice Lindsey has i had to applaud after he was done but whats up with the host was it just me or was he making wried vibes there like something ain't quite right *sip* i do have to say watching the guys eye explode like that was a little tough for me but watching Lindsey with is new hand was funny i really enjoyed watching him stab it with the pen and it do nothing speaking of evil hand come on now how many of us believe it was "Lindsey's evil hand" that grab Lilah's butt please we all know he's been wanting to do that for a while *sips* it was cool to see Lindsey and angel fight at the travel agent i thought it was really cute when angel wanted to throw the axe into the store and Lindsey thought he want to fight him with it and the goodbye scene at the the end with "cops suck" taped on the tailgate was funny as all get out *sips* the speech between Lindsey and angel where Lindsey tell him that the key to WR&H is to make them play your game and not play theres is a little strange to me i thought the key to WH&R is knowing that there aren't any rules o well maybe this will become clear later on *sips* i love the fact that angel mention the jetsons in this ep i hardly see the jetsons on tv anymore and that just reminded me of simpler times like angel said Parole officer: You can kill me if you want, but Wolfram&Hart will do much worse. Angel: Now, why would I kill you...(morphs)..when I can live off you for a while. Mmmm, can't you just taste that butter fat? Lindsey: You are sick, you know that? now this was just as sick as it was funny i had to watch that twice cause i couldn't stop laughing *finishes beer* I'm going to go back to the Hyperion for another, so there are my two cents on this ep over all it was a great ep had lots of humor something alot of the eps before it were missing and so i say farewell Lindsey McDonald may you find the peace you are looking for
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Post by tjaman on May 7, 2006 11:39:02 GMT -5
S2x19 - BELONGINGgrailwolf
*pops popcorn, warms up the DVD and gets ready for some truly Brilliant Insights™* Angelu§fan what is tonights show btw grailwolf
2x19 - Belonging bitterman
And a handful of inarticulate and illiterate hoots and bellows from the trolls and baboons. Nature of the beast, unfortunately. Charisma69 grailwolf said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *pops popcorn, warms up the DVD and gets ready for some truly Brilliant Insights™* You must remember to quit teasing us like that grailwolf.
I'll be expecting some truly Brilliant Insights from you on tonights episode.
I've really missed your brilliant insights in this thread.
We really need to hear from Py as well. Don't hear near enough from him.
Sadly you guys will have to do without my brilliant insights on this eppy.
Too many tests this week - so little time. grailwolf
You misunderstand... I'm waiting for everyone else's Brilliant Insights. I'll watch the ep as well, but it'll probably have to wait for the weekend. SinginGypsyGrrl is going camping with her mom and sis, so I'll have time. That sounds bad... what I'll mean is that I'll have nothing to do. All home and lonely like. Charisma69 grailwolf said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You misunderstand... I'm waiting for everyone else's Brilliant Insights.Actually I misunderstood you on purpose. (Meaning I actually knew what you meant)
I was trying to give you a huge hint that your brilliant insights are very much missed in the book club.
Now, since you'll be all lonely this weekend I'm expecting to hear a huge amount of brilliant things from you. bitterman
I'm just expecting to cadge some ciggies from your pack while you're waxing on and on about the epi, gw. PyleansDontLeaveMe
Ah ciggies. You breaker of hearts.
Yes, this evening my new sheltie pup Lola and I will be enjoying Charisma's boobies.
For the full scoop on Lola, feel free to ask ITL Charisma69 Py said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes, this evening my new sheltie pup Lola and I will be enjoying Charisma's boobies.
Does this mean we will be graced with your brilliant insights on this eppy?
Please tell me it does. Don't pull a Grailwolf on us and taunt us with false promises of brilliant insights. I just couldn't take it.
*Really hopes Grailwolf appreciates the joke* tjaman PyleansDontLeaveMe said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Charisma's boobies* lost in a moment * Mmmm ... certainly enjoyable ...
Oh, wait a moment ...
subtext is rapidly becoming ... text
Um, Py, that's a bit confusing in this forum environment, yes? Angelu§fan ok so tonight ep is belonging Lorne: Though I usually don't go by Lorne cause...green. Angel: Lorne Green! (Cordelia and Wesley look puzzled) Angel: Bonanza! (Cordelia and Wesley still look puzzled) Angel: Doesn't 15 years on the air mean anything? (Cordelia and Wesley look puzzled even more) Angel: Okay, now I feel old. ok lets just start with this for now ok iknow im young and all and i know i dont know any of the peolpe on bananza but dang it i do know what it is and yes angel you are old (as pionted out in my next statement) Angel: I'm not cheap, I'm just old. I remember when a few bob got you a good meal, a bottle, and a tavern wench ok im only guessing here but i think tavern wench as something to do with the ep the Prodigal if you think im worng feel free to tell me b'man:) next point is whats up with the host name Krevlorneswath of the Deathwok Clan now theres a name that just sounds friendly Deathwok Landok: Your Mother's burden is terrible. Lorne: Misses her little green boo does she? Landok: She rips your image into tiny pieces, feeds them to the swine, butchers the pigs and has their remains scattered for the dogs. Lorne: Sounds like Ma. sounds like my family on a good day so whats with the host family hating him so much it sounds like they're ashame of him ok so who is this fred person is this someone they're going to save or are they going to forget about her and btw where is cordy cause if she's in the host world she needs to be careful and watch out for drokkens wesley trying to take charge and being unable to think on his feet was one of the most cutest things i have ever seen "ok wes what do we do" "uh" just so cute to me it was kinda funny to see Charisma Carpenter doing that bad actting on the stage and to see angel there pretending to get a tan was one of the well i wouldnt say funny but strange- funny if you get what im saying well thats my brillant insight on tonights ep i will toon in next week to see what happens to cordy PyleansDontLeaveMe Hey, I just said we'd be watching them, I didn't say we'd be hypnotized by them
I still love this eppy.
Yes, clearly Lorne's family IS ashamed of him. It's the beginning of the Gay man's journey back home to his small town to make peace with his past (or not) it's so common it's mythic in our community.
AF- Tavern Wench= Waitress. He's talking about gettin' some sex for money.
LOVED the beginnings of Cordy's acting dream being realized only to find out that it isn't the magic world she was expecting and her gradual realization that she actually belongs where she is. It mirros perfectly the journey that the host is going to have to now undertake. And I really liked Krevlorneswath of the deathwok clan's cousin.
Boy, the ending actually is quite the surprise cliffhanger, isn't it? It feels like everything is all tidied up and dealt with up until that moment. I hope after they get her back that Cordy never mysteriously dissappears again. Angelu§fan Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ AF- Tavern Wench= Waitress. He's talking about gettin' some sex for money. i know that thats why i piont out the ep the Prodigal in the flashback liam's old man says something to the fact of "drinkin' and whoren' again all night" PyleansDontLeaveMe Ah. Sorry, thought you were asking a broader question.
Heh.
'Broad-er'
Heh. Angelu§fan its ok py im often misunderstood broad-er now thats cute tjaman
I'm not certain why this scene hits me in the gut like it does, 'cuz my dad happens to think the world of me, but when Wes is on the phone with ol' Rodge, and Rodge is clearly making all sorts of p@ssively-aggressive digs at him -- past failures, insecurities, etc. -- I just really feel like he must've when that bullet slammed through him. That kind of stuff is cruel, and I wish Wesley could unload on him with both barrels.
Our first little glimpse of Fred. Ah.
And of course the main theme is Lorne confronting his roots, his family, his "shame," that kind of ugliness. His invitation to the back row of an Elton John concert was a little telling, but hey, the boy knows his acoustics (and "denial" is just a river in Egypt).
His willingness to take on the reading room at the library was very cool. Lorne should do something community-minded with his days (y'know, apart from "saving the world" -- meh, he helped with "Happy Anniversary")
I loved "Superstitious," by the way. Excellent rendition.
The tracking and fighting of the Drokken was just killing time. The beast went back and forth from being ferocious, take-on-all-comers and in-your-face to stealthy and mysterious. Beasts only get to have one nature.
It's eating Wesley's flare was cool. The damsel in distress was openly pointless, but on the plus side, nice dress, am I right people?
Cordy, of course, doesn't take crap from anyone, but she knows the biz, and she knows lots of girls are perfectly willing to bust through that top if she refuses. Angel's willingness to defend her was touching, but removed from relevance by about a century. His enjoying the fake sunny day was very sweet.
That commercial was doomed to suck anyway. The guy getting the rubdown looked like he was enjoying it about as much as a digital prostate exam. Unless, of course, he'd just prefer a digital prostate exam.
The dinner scene was cool, but Angel's outburst was uncharacteristic. Normally, he'd have tracked the "witch" to the alley outside and then confronted her. I guess it made Cordy's subsequent contribution to the chaos somewhat less awkward.
I like Gunn, I like his past and his backstory, but whenever it shows up on screen, I'm just bored by it. Sorry.
Anyway, they were taking Angel's car. He could've just given the guys the keys to the truck.
I liked Wesley sort of gracefully easing out of the driver's seat. Angel's plan was a good one, although if the cousin dude can track the Drokken, um, so can Lorne.
I liked the cousin guy.
My sister and I had a disagreement about how horrible nuance is. She likes things to be right and wrong, good and bad, heroes and villians, etc., the way they are in the world Lorne described, whereas I'm fairly happy with the grays. I think Angel would prefer things to be cut-and-dried, but of course his very existence makes good and evil sort of muddly.
That discussion mirrored Buffy's graveside conversation with Giles (can't remember which eppy), about how monsters are always bad, and good guys will always defeat the black hats and save the day, and no one will ever get hurt.
"Liar," she said.
No doubt.
Lots of good in this eppy, but I'm really looking forward to our romp through Pylea.
If we thought that bikini top was happy ... Angelu§fan the ep tj was " lie to me" and it was buffy and giles standing at fords grave it goes something like this: Giles: The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after. Buffy: Liar grailwolf
More to the point, it was episode 2x07. The title was, in fact, Lie To Me.
Good catch, TJ, I somehow never connected those two things. PyleansDontLeaveMe
Joss clearly enjoys a muddied moral spectrum
I'm a little disappointed that no one has asked about the Sheltie pup, however tjaman
So how is Lola? PyleansDontLeaveMe
SHE'S FANTASTIC! She's geting to be a real cuddler. Still wakes me up a couple times a night to go outside, but at least she gets the whole 'don't pee on the bed' issue, so I can't complain there. She's small enough to walk under the Vizsla, but is completely fascinated by him. She's just starting to manifets her own little Sheltie sense of humor.
(can you tell I've been dying to be asked tjaman
PyleansDontLeaveMe said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ She's small enough to walk under the Vizsla, but is completely fascinated by him.
That could be part of the fascination ... PyleansDontLeaveMe
Fair point
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Post by tjaman on May 7, 2006 12:38:30 GMT -5
S2x20 - OVER THE RAINBOWtjaman
Wes: And we didn't get turned into some weird four-person Siamese twin. Gunn: That was a risk? Why wasn't I told that was a risk?
So, I'm going to Pylea, heading back for the first time in, oh, say, five years.
Why do I throw on the reddest, flashiest thing in my closet?
And speaking of flashy things ...
HAVE HER BATHED AND SHAVED AND BROUGHT TO MY CHAMBER!
Nice work from Cordy all the way through, nice work from BrendleFred.
Cordy: "You're a laaazy hellbeast, yes you are. You lie on the rock in the sun and I'll run for my life!"
Even better:
Cordy: "That's right, Cordelia -- scream really loud so the hell beasts come to you" Of course -- we put cursed people in charge and allow them to wield supreme authority.
Angel, saying the Tower of London wasn't so bad. I wonder how he got out? For a show about vampires, I don't think they explore the thrall vampires have over people to any significant extent.
Of course the most fun was watching Angel skip and hop about in the sun like a little girl.
It's so accomodating for everyone to be speaking English, isn't it? What fun. At least Star Trek tries to explain it through the use of technology. This was just silly.
But silly is fun sometimes. And hey -- Cordy in a spangly halter. How's that gonna be bad?
I liked it. It was fun. I liked Aggie, I liked Lorne, I liked everyone.
Well, the Pyleans were a little, well, y'know. And I'm guessing they get even more y'know by next week's installment. Even so, tho -- fun!
And, looking ahead a bit: Gunn: "I'll take the 20 on the right, you take the 50 on the left."
I knew that had a familiar ring to it ...
Wes: I think we're winning!!!
Groo: Have they no eyes in this village? Can they not just look upon you and see that you are a Princess? Pardon my impudence, majesty, but you are wrong. The Covenant has declared it so. You declare it so. You declare it with your bearing, and with your beauty, and with the mercy I have seen you bestow upon one of your subjects this very day. If you treat all of your subjects this way, you will do much good.
This episode is when "Angel" wandered into "Charmed" and showed them how it's done.
Lorne: (in presentation) My mother!
"We noticed feasting and celebrations! Numfar did the dance of joy! Numfar! Do the dance of joy!"
Allow me to just give a shout out to Numfar.
"Numfar, no longer do the dance of joy." "Numfar, do the dance of honor."
Our Joss is comedy inspired. David Fury, eat your heart out.
Obviously one of the major points in this episode is when Angel vamps out. I wondered if that was still David Boreanaz under there. When he moved, he moved with such sinister grace -- the nails, the expression beneath the prosthetic makeup, this took some actual doing. It was like he was channeling Nosferatu. His movements in battle and stealth took on actual dance qualities. I was impressed by his transformation -- truly impressed.
Fred: Bad things always happen here.
Fred was very brave. To divert the monster to protect people she didn't know, that was powerful. Obviously something in her brief time with Angel reminded her about her other life, her dream, how people have to look out for one another and not hide in caves, which would've been incredibly easy for her to do -- especially when moments earlier she was pleading for a quick end to her life. It says something about her heart.
Lorne is obviously not dead, but what a shocking cliffhanger the first time you see it. Wesley's mistrust of the priests seemed well founded. Rabble rumblings. That is indeed a message for the princess -- Wes' head on a pike with a note in his mouth. Things don't look good for our heroes.
Cordy: It's not like my throne couldn't use a few more cushions, but I'm not complaining much because -- hey. Throne."
and
"Off with their heads! Kidding."
Other notes: Angel fussing with his hair. Lorne: "It's the homecoming I've always dreamed of." Angel being horrified by his demon visage. Wesley figuring out the books. And Gunn: "Oh good. More fun."
Along with: "You really think you're gonna get your booty through the front door?"
And, Cordy, on seeing the bearer beast: "Kill me now."
Ah, I know we've all been there, am I right, people?
And just before: "We could have a few drinks, some dinner, get to know each other, and three or four years down the road if we still think it's working out ... Don't you think it was add a kind of feminine mystique if I was just not here?"
And, finally:
Cordy: Could we please find some dimension where demons don't try to impregnate me with their demon spawn? Is that too much to ask? I don't give off some kind of 'comshuck me' vibe, do I? I mean, you'd tell me, right?"
Nice, nice eppy. Charisma69
What a great episode. So many wonderful lines.
Off with their heads!
Just kidding
First they poked me with hot pokers for awhile, then they made me a Princess.
I love Angel checking out his hair.
Why didn't anybody tell me about this?
You want me to go talk to my family, on purpose?
Numfar, do the dance of joy!
so very funny.
No longer do the dance of joy Numfar! Now take your cow and get off my lawn!
Numfar, do the dance of honor!
It's the homecoming I always dreamed of
Starting to bore the Princess
I just love snarky Cordy!
I chopped off the evil lawyer beasts hand, then he screamed and he screamed then I left.
You're just a regular Hans Christian Tarantino aren't you.
It's been a really long time since I had a good ... Com-Shuck
Think it oh-oh sh1t.
Way too funny.
Gunn: Do you really think you'll be able to get your booty through the front door? Cordy: Hey! Gunn:I meant that booty.
Fred: And with me being dead and you being not real I can hardly be expected to have some big conversation it's just a little too much pressure, all right?!
Fred: Really ... they made her a princess? They didn't do that for me.
Hello Groo!
The strange curve of my mouth, the odd bulge ... in my arms
I love it when Cordy says Get out! and everyone starts to leave.
He can stay.
So very sweet.
So, do you think these two crazy kids have a future together?
Have I mentioned how glad I am that I had to leave my people behind in L.A. just so I could come here to die?!
Oh my God!
It ended on such a cliffhanger.
And poor Lorne. I can't believe they killed poor Lorne.
Now my allergies are all acting up.
In answer to your question Tj, here's something from Angel The Casefiles Volume 1:
What did you think when you saw the script and learned you were going to be the AngelBeast?
David Boreanaz: Jeez, I didn't want to be in the makeup, I'll tell you that. It was pretty horrifying. It was a pretty ugly thing. Which was pretty much the theme for this whole season, though. The way he was the whole season. So he came to grips with his problem.
How long did your makeup take?
David Boreanaz: [About three and a half hours.] I was only in that thing once. I couldn't deal with it. The stuntperson was in that more than I was.
And another interesting note. Here was the original script description for the Groosalugg:
A quite literal BRONZE GOD - half human, half something else. But all the best halves. Bronze metallic skin glowing, pure blue eyes flashing. Dressed in Lancelot gear.
I'm so glad they decided to lose the color. tjaman
Well, they did keep the impossibly blue eyes. Although, when I saw him in an Excedrin commercial, he still had the cobalt blue peepers, so they're either his contacts or he's a FREEQ!!! Charisma69
It said he wore colored contacts for the part of Groo, so I guess he got to keep them.
I mean I don't suppose they could use them on anyone else. That would just be gross. Angelu§fan They could have sold them on ebay and got a lot of money for them. tjaman
Still, ew.PyleansDontLeaveMe
OK, I've completely lost track of what week we're on, so I'm bumping this up in anticipation of a combined review of Over the Rainbow/Through the looking gl@ss.
Watch for it a bit later today, my ninas. Charisma69 Py said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Watch for it a bit later today, my ninas*Looks at watch. Taps foot impatiently.*
Py, haven't you learned that it's not nice to tease us with promises of brilliant insights?
We need our witty banter. Don't tease us with empty promises. We won't be held accountable for our actions.
Not that we're addicts or anything ... cause we all know that not true. Really, we're not. grailwolf
*surreptitiously slips patch to C69* Charisma69
grailwolf said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *surreptitiously slips patch to C69*
*whispers* Thanks g'wolf. I don't need this ... but I have a friend that does. I'll make sure she gets it.
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Post by tjaman on May 7, 2006 18:38:42 GMT -5
S2x21 - THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS
* seems to be missing *
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Post by tjaman on May 7, 2006 18:49:37 GMT -5
S2x22 - THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE PLRTZ GLRBtjaman
Well, I'm not Py, but I will do what little I can. Think of me as the patch that will get you through to the good stuff.
I know you've all been in suspense all week for what I thought of "There's No Place Like Plrtz Grb." And I have to say, they crammed a lot of good into this eppy.
On the face of it, it seems too easy. Kill the priest and the day is saved. After all, it didn't seem like he had anything in the way of security holding them back as they ran around in the leftover set from 1) Dr. Who or b) "The Princess Bride."
But Wesley did come across with the rather ominous line that they didn't act on for fully 1-1/2 seasons -- and didn't reference when they should have. "When you try to save everyone, you end up saving no one."
Not until Angel had to sacrifice Fred's and Drogyn's lives at soul-searing costs did Cynthia actually confront that particular reality. And when the realization hit, Wesley really learned the meaning of that prophetic phrase.
Wesley sets forth a wonderful plan that did, in fact, kill off most of the rebels. However, how great an inspiration for the downtrodden -- to realize that that power is, indeed, @ssailable. That they can, in fact, rise up and defeat the oppressors.
It's one of the biggest problems I have with the current situation. If the people had been empowered to take control of their own destinies in Iraq, they very likely would not be suicide bombing the occupying forces. America should've fought this war through the means that we always have -- cultural subversion. Airdropping literature into the town squares explaining step by step how to depose a bad king. In the absence of any information to the contrary, America is seen as being at least as big a bad as Saddam Hussein. We're $200 billion poorer and we have nothing to show for it besides an increasingly suspicious populace nominally governed by an illegitimate interim body, a meaningless constitution and people longing for the good old days when Saddam hugged their children and executed "criminals" on television.
If they'd been allowed to conduct their own coup d'etat, if American had been guiding them rather than doing it for them, they'd feel a lot more in control, and we'd be out a few thousand bucks in printing costs.
Back to the topic at hand ...
Angel's challenge was quite dramatic, although when we got a good look at the challenge torch it was three flaming marshmallows on a stick. Even so, it was a great fight scene, big with the bloody, and they stuffed David back into the prothesis. Now that was Angelus. Not this namby-pamby "Find me someone to eat!" running through the streets of L.A. S4 nitwit.
Cordy's declaration of love for Groo was a little out of nowhere, but to be fair she was in another dimension and she hadn't had a good comshuck in some time.
I realized the strategy of having her wear that ... wonderful little top. Ain't no way anyone with jingle-bell boobs can sneak up on someone. If the priest had had any respect for how very Cordy she was, however, he'd never have turned his back on her. She was really maturing a lot in this episode, realizing that the visions she got from the Powers That Be really contributed to the good fight.
Also, don't believe everything you're foretold. Really, Groo with the visions? Completely Keanu Reeves. "There's, like, a dude, and he's fighting this other dude, and they're in, like, the forest." How useless is that?
I will leave all of Lorne's realization about his homecoming to the maestro.
It's amazing Wes didn't scoop up an armload of books when they took their leave. Convenient of them to materialize in Caritas and not, say, in Nebraska, or Brazil, or deep within the Earth's crust or an outer moon of Jupiter or somewhere in the Andromeda galaxy, all of which are potential entry points in this dimension.
But if I pay attention to that, I have to focus on the fact that everyone in Pylea spoke English, although the texts were in another language entirely (and me without my universal translator), which Wesley could read anyway despite their tripartheid organization.
And Willow at the end. Heartbreaking.
Lots I forgot to mention, but all in all a very good eppy, good closure to the Pylea arc, and very nice season finale.
That ought to tide you over. Blow our minds, Py Charisma69 tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well, I'm not Py, but I will do what little I can. Think of me as the patch that will get you through to the good stuff.
Um ... I'm not the one that's addicted. That was my friend ... yeah my friend is addicted.
But I'll let her know about your very wonderful post. That really does help ... I mean that really will help her get through the night.
She's a terrible addict for the witty posting ... It's not me, why do you keep looking at me like that?
Oh, because I'm wearing the patch ... um ... well ... I'm just testing it ... yeah, that's it! I'm testing it ... you know to make sure it works and stuff.
Wouldn't want to p@ss a sub-defective patch to my friend or anything. tjaman
Charisma69 said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wouldn't want to p@ss a sub-defective patch to my friend or anything.
So very thoughtful. Charisma69
tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So very thoughtful.
Yup, that's me. I'm always making sacrifices for my friends. I'm just that kind of person, so giving. PyleansDontLeaveMe
Eeep!
I got so into lovingly crafting my thoughts on Gunn via Warzone that I completely forgot about the Pylea arc analysis.
I'm so very sorry.
I blame J. August.
If the man wasn't so dang likeable in every way I wouldn't have gotten so lost in discussion of him.
OK, Let me pull this together... Charisma69
There you go teasing us again.
Um ... could you hurry that along by the way? My friends patch is wearing off. I'm ... I mean she's getting a jittery from the lack of promised brilliant insights. PyleansDontLeaveMe
I'm working on it, I'm working on it.
I do theoretically have a day job that I'm supposed to be taking care of here as well tjaman
Charisma69 said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Um ... could you hurry that along by the way? My friends patch is wearing off. I'm ... I mean she's getting a jittery from the lack of promised brilliant insights.
Knew I was a poor substitute. Charisma69
tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Knew I was a poor substitute.
Actually, you missed the key word in my sentence. Promised.
You never promise to deliver brilliant insights and then fail to deliver them.
Therefore you never send me ... I mean my friend into withdrawals based on my ... I mean her addiction to the witty banter. tjaman
Ah. Happy now.
But, still with the vague sense that I'm missing something ...
What could it be ...
Ah yes -- Py's Brilliant Insights™.
I think we all ought to take up a collection and just pay Py to sit at home in his underwear (or, y'know, someone else's underwear -- I don't really care) and watch "Angel," scratch himself and then write about it.
Write about "Angel," that is. If he wants to write about scratching himself there are entire other websites devoted to that.
Anyway, I'll start that collection right now --> Aunt Arlene
I'm willing to donate. I'm flush in kittens, so to speak. Charisma69
I'll donate too. We're still waiting on those brilliant insights PY.
I'm getting the shakes ... I mean my friend is getting the shakes from the withdrawels. grailwolf
C69 said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You never promise to deliver brilliant insights and then fail to deliver them.
Yes, this is a lesson I have learned all too well....
Py, for the love of God man get her those Brilliant Insights. I'd hate to see anyone else endure the tortures I was put through on my last offense.
Actually, upon further reflection, I think I'd rather like seeing that... As you were.
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Post by tjaman on May 7, 2006 19:04:32 GMT -5
S2x19-22 - THE PYLEAN ARC
PyleansDontLeaveMe
Boy, have I had the all time King MOMMA of crappy days.
Ah well.
The Pylea Arc-
Let's establish at the outset, What we're talking about under the Umbrella term 'The Pylea Arc' is Belonging, Over the Rainbow, Through the Looking Gl@ss, and There's no Place like however the hell it was spelled.
Ok, that established, I am now going to put forth my opinion that the only title that matters in that grouping is 'Belonging' The other three can feel free to leave a resume and go home. We'll let you know.
To me, this is a four hour episode entitled 'Belonging', Because that is what is is all about- Beginning to end. Alpha to Omega. Sunrise, sunset, is this the little boy I carried.
Barring the touching Allyson Hannigan Cameo coda it even bookends itself with the concept quite neatly.
More specifically, the four hour episode that I will now insist on calling 'Belonging' is about the dissonance between where you are, Where you think you should be, and Where you truly belong. Most of us @ssume that the third one is always one of the other two, but that's not always the case.
Every single major character is currently being gored on the horns of this dilemma. Every single one. Including that nice new research physisist. In fact, in many ways Fred is the physical manifestation for the entire metaphor at work here. I am not where I should be. I hate where I am. EVerything here is bad. I want to be there instead. I don't even know how I ended UP here, I so clearly was headed THERE.
Much like he always did, Joss took that metaphor on made it literal, only instead of a monster in a rubber suit we ended up with a charming and quite attractively perky little science grrl. Which is probably for the best, especially from Amy Acker's perspective.
Let's break it down character by character. For the opening salvo I'm only going to address the first two points, since the whole point of the arc is finding out what was behind door #3
And just to recover old ground, analytically speaking, I'll recap my often stated belief about Lorne's part in the saga-
Actually, you know what? I'm going to step out to smoke- Back in five. This will have to be an analysis in installments, I don't want to risk accidentally wiping the whole thing and having to start over again... tjaman
Sir Bedevere: "Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?"
Go for it, PyGuy! Right. Had a smoke Been to the restroom I'm back
Ok, Lorne
As I've said many times before, Lorne's story in this is the archetypal journey of a gay man raised in a small town who, having found his way to the big city where he can life his life the way he's always wanted to, has to journey home to make peace with his past.
WHat I haven't possibly said before is that this is just one manifestation of the 'belonging' metaphor. Lorne is in LA. As he states in unequivocable terms, he loves LA. He's happy in LA. He has no desire to belong anywhere but LA.
BUT
And this is the crux oh what Aggie was telling him.
Deep down, on a level that he doesn't even want to contemplate, he doesn't really think that he belongs there. He wants to belong there. He DESPERATELY wants to belong there. But he doesn't really believe that he does. THAT's why he has to go home. That's the whole point of his final talk with Angel in Pylea. After carrying the guilt of having left his family, and the sense of betraying them by being different, he is able to finally just let all of that crap go.
Angel- Is in present day LA. But he doesn't really feel like he belongs in the present day. Why do you think we get the discussion in the opening scene of Belonging about how he isn't cheap, merely old. The stress of how simple things were back when he was human. How much more black and white the world was. Angel lives in a complex and grey world. He believes that he belongs in a more clearly delineated- pylea like- society. The business between him and Cordy's director and the citizens protesting for monster rights only underscore his awkwardness with the muddy moral issues.
Gunn is currently with Team Angel (or as I like to call them, Cynthia!) But in his heart he believes that he belongs with his old gang. He feels like he has betrayed his roots by growing and moving on, finding a new place. I'm hesitant to add- but I will- that there's also the slightest whiff of racial tension about the issue. Gunn fears the exact same thing that we all worried about when his character was introduced- Tokenism. (and again, a shout out to J. August for making this a complete non-issue for his character, completely transcending the debate by simply never having it. But I'm retreading old ground here again) Gunn is with Cynthia! He feels like he still should belong with his old crew. Interestingly enough, the death of one of his old crew only exacerbates this, but strangely enough in the opposite way that you might think. He feels guilty about the death because he wasn't with them, but it oddly brings his crisis point forward, and instead of making it an Angel's team or the old crew debate it becomes a matter of 'Be there for people when they need you or don't, regardless of what group they belong to' ANd of course, the answer to that question is much much clearer.
Cordy is with Cynthia! helping those hopeless. But she's holding on to an old dream of belonging to a much less worthwile set. This seems to resolve itself in the first hour when she comes to terms with not fitting into the world of professional acting, but really it's a manifestation of something much much deeper. She wants to be special. She wants to be a princess. Or rather, she thinks that that's what she wants. She too has grown out of her old ideas of where she belongs.
And I've deliberately saved Wesley for last, because his is the most subtle and in many ways the most interesting of the issues.
Wesley is the leader of the group.
ANd he doesn't think he should be.
Look at the way he consistently tries to shunt the decisions off to Angel. The way he attempts to fade into the background. He wants to be worthy of leadership, but he doesn't think that he is. Or ever will be.
So, here are the five variations on the theme of where we belong.
Lorne- IS where he belongs, but doesn't feel he deserves it Gunn- IS where he belongs because he's changed and adapted to new information and new circumstances, but he feels like he's left his old friends behind Angel- IS where he belongs, but feels like where he is left him behind a long time ago because he hasn't @ssimilated to a more complicated way of thinking. Cordy- IS where she belogns because she has grown SO much bigger than the shallow concepts of what she used to want, but she hasn't yet realized that intellectually. And Wesley- IS where he belongs, but believes thaqt he's a fraud for being there.
Left a bad life, Drifted away from old friends, Holding on to old ideas, Believing onself to be less important than you actually are, And believing you're not up to the tasks at hand
These are the things that make us feel like we don't belong where we already are.
Or, of course, we might just have been chucked through a stinking great hole in the middle of the library aisle and sold as cattle.
Either or. tjaman
* weeps hot, salty tears of joy at being born at the right time to read this man's writing * grailwolf
*was going to say something, but TJ beat him to it*
*and said it better*
Thank you, Py. Charisma69
Whoa!!!
My friend says the withdrawals have gone away!! This ought to hold me ... I mean her over for at least a week.
Seriously, it was worth the wait. You totally delivered on the promised goods. Above and beyond the call of posting.
You must be published. You totally need to write your own collection of Buffy and Angel essays.
I would buy it. Hell I'd help you market it. Great stuff!! bitterman
*does the Dance of Py©* Bango!
I didn't enjoy the "essay" as much as I have enjoyed his past reviews...I guess every shining star has got to have a little flicker once in a while....probably 'cause of some random misspellings and or the sense of it being rushed...
Mr Nasty
Brilliant insights, Py.
By the by, have you ever contributed anything to the episode guide? I remember I asked if you would like to but that was a while ago and it hasn't been mentioned again. I'm sure that a lot of the thoughts you have presented here and in other threads would make great additions if somebody were to copy/paste them into the appropriate places. Honestly, this stuff is too good not to save in some form or another. grailwolf
Seconded, Mr Nasty. This work should definitely be saved for posterity. PyleansDontLeaveMe
Are they not far far too long for that section?
I could cull some salient bits, I suppose...
I've just been so d**n busy lately.
Trying to finish work on this book, plus a full time job, plus all the trauma.
Sounds good to me though (The posting, not the trauma) tjaman
* flings a dinner roll at B+'s head * Heretic! Two or three random misspellings do not sully a brilliant piece of analysis.
And what do you mean rushed? Are you high?
I've never seen anything that insightful out of you on these boards once.
* redirect * Excellent work, Py. Well done. PyleansDontLeaveMe
Actually, in all fairness, Bango has a fair point.
It's a consistant problem with me, that I could really use a good editor. There are indeed some spelling issues that a quick polish up would've taken care of.
Ah well. Such is the peril of the first draft. tjaman
Except for the fact that:
a) In an essay such as that one, using the direct entry program we're all using, one is capable of overlooking one or two typos.
2) It did in no way detract from the serious redirect in analysis that happens if you comment on them one at a time -- obviously a lot of thought went into that.
c) My dinner roll stands.
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Post by tjaman on May 7, 2006 19:21:24 GMT -5
Bango!
*throws pudding at TJ*
I still hold to my statement.I think he could've did better...I've seen him do better essays with more in-depth wow-ness. All I see from this one is just a few lines about a certain character...I think he could do better. Infact I know he could do better.
Aunt Arlene
* TJ ducks and the pudding sails over his head. As TJ was standing in front of the PY statue, it bounces off the protection spell and lands squarely on Bango's head. *
PyleansDontLeaveMe
Curiousity piqued-
Bango, which character had a few lines that struck you? I'm just curious about it.
It's true that the nature of examining the themes of four episodes as a single structure did end up shortchanging the depth a bit, but I think in terms of these four episodes it's really the theme that was important. Plus, you know, day job. Limited time to work on such things, sadly.
Of course, if someone would pay me to sit at home scratching myself and writing these things
tjaman
B+: Py -- for free -- has given us a detailed character analysis of the way things stood at the end of S2. He's given us -- did you effin' read that post? -- a very cogent, insightful and solidly written study about Lorne, Fred, Angel, Gunn, Cordy and Wesley, and explored their situations as they were individually tested and deepened over the course of four episodes -- from a persepective I'd frankly never even considered.
* begins to wish there was an 'ignore' function on this board *
Charisma69
I'm going to have to side with everyone else on this one Bango.
You must really be high. That was some seriously brilliant insights from PY! And I know brilliant insights when I see them.
It even got rid of my withdrawals ... I mean my friends withdrawals.
Who needs a patch when we've got PY to wow us with his most brilliant insights.
I challenge you to do better since you don't think his were good enough.
crazygolfa
I thought that PY's analysis of the 4 hour arc of "Belonging" was brilliant. I really need to watch that arc when I comes on TNT again. He really did a good job delving into each character's attitude and feelings.
I could never give as much insight a Py did there, I have a George Bush mind -- smart but not able to vocalize it well.
spk1903 bsedies, wahts wonrg wtih his selplnig?
Just kidding, lots o' love to everyone!
Adonis Lamia
I agree I have to go back now and re-watch those episodes. It is rainy and cold here today...so after work its time to warm up the DVD player and start watching Angel.
tjaman
Sounds like a good plan.
Bango!
TJ,you know what they say..."if ya can't take the critique...." Different minds call for different opinions...I think you (or someone else) taught me that!
*throws another batch of pudding at TJ and Auntie A.!)
Seriously, I love Py's work, but this one seemed bland. I know he can do better.
C69, HA!
Actually I did do one before. It was a thorough review on Btvs Season 6. It was on Amazon. I wrote it to promote the DVD. Was chosen the top spotlight review for the item for four months, mainly because many liked it...so...I decline the offer, because...
A. like you all would give it a chance!
B. at the moment I literally hate writing essays of in-depth stuff,(personal reasons).
c. And since I've been having these terrible headaches I can't seem to write right.
tjaman
* wipes away pudding *
Bango+ said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ since I've been having these terrible headaches I can't seem to write right.
Oh, well, allow me to help you with that.
* gets an ibuprophen *
* With a hammer, lodges it into a dinner roll -- one of the really hard ones left over from the Bash *
* accepts the >BAM!< rifle from Z'Rolf *
* muzzleloads the rifle *
>BAM!<
* fires the dinner roll directly at B+, where it makes a resounding >THWACK!< against his skull *
All better?
* hands rifle back to Z'Rolf *
Bango+ said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ TJ,you know what they say..."if ya can't take the critique...."
And I also know that they say this: "Any jack@ss can kick down a barn. It takes a craftsman to build one."
I'd give it a chance, B+. Do share. The floor is yours.
Py's post is brilliant, and my dinner roll, along with its more recent, more medicated cousin, and your even more recent head injury, stand.
My reviews are out there. I freely admit that they pale in comparison to Py's. And until you can explicate the character development of "Belonging" through "Plrtz Grb" better, you should perhaps nurse your wound and keep quiet.
Just sayin' grailwolf spk1903 said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ bsedies, wahts wonrg wtih his selplnig?One of the funnier things I've read today. Thanks.
grailwolf
TJ said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Any jack@ss can kick down a barn. It takes a craftsman to build one.
*suddenly feels a little guilty for recent comments he's made about Charmed*
d**n.
Seriously though. I really like this quote and I think I may have to use it often in the near future. Not that I'll need to, it's just cool.Bango!
*...like you're the only one to wack me upside the head...only this time its a medicated dinner roll instead of the telephone receiver...*
TJ, what's the big deal? I didn't like it. Should I keep quiet if I don't like it? No. I think that hurts Py in not telling him, instead of giving him the well deserved big head that he usually deserves. tjaman
Py's only response to you was this:
PyleansDontLeaveMe said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Curiousity piqued-
Bango, which character had a few lines that struck you? I'm just curious about it.
It's true that the nature of examining the themes of four episodes as a single structure did end up shortchanging the depth a bit, but I think in terms of these four episodes it's really the theme that was important. Plus, you know, day job. Limited time to work on sich things, sadly
And you still haven't responded.
I liked his review. I don't give a flying fig about what you thought of his review. (Except that I still think you haven't read it and are, perhaps, high).
But in that he does, go ahead and spill already. Bango!
...So,I'm high just because I didn't agree with what Py said? That's unfair and quite childish. We're all mature, so let's start acting like it!
Okay, Py, here's why I thought you could do better than that, because I know you can, you've done outstanding works here on other subjects, but like in a recipe gone bad, you left out certain ingredients to the analysis of the Pylean arc.
Your analysis was to show belonging in the character's ownselves during the Pylea arc...am I right?
I really have no problem with how you analyzed Lorne. I agree, for him to be able to "belong" in the world that he loves, he must go back and face his past, because that's really the only way to offically move on,(Spike really needs to take that advice and tell Buffy he's alive so he can really move on!). You explained how Lorne was before his trip to Pylea, and facing the music while in Pylea, and being able to move on...So that part I agree on, and that's the part you did well on.
But the other characters...
For Gunn, you did touch the fact that he was thrown in between two groups, Team Angel and his old "buddies". You said he needed to grasp that he needed to help or don't, no matter what race they were...Okay. Is that right? But deciding to help no matter what race was not the point for Gunn's arc. If he went to help his new friends,(Team Angel),and not his old "buddies", that meant he'd lose a part of himself. He built that gang, told them the ways of the fight. Gunn was like a parent to those fellows. They weren't just his buddies, they were his family. That's the struggle he went through, choosing either friends, or family...not trying to figure which side to fight, because they both fight the same war. He'll come to realize later that they have drifted from that rule, and don't exactly fight the same fight, but right now, in the story both groups are on the same page. His arc was to show that he can't always be there for his family in the huge war that they fight. That's the same thing he had to go through when his sister was killed and vamped a year earlier. He lost his family several times in the fight against evil, and it goes to the whole point of why Gunn became a vampire hunter. Sure, in the beginning it was about revenge, but later he had to realize that it's not about having revenge, its about doing what's right. To me, that's the whole point of his arc. Not about choosing sides, but about losing important things, and having to face his inner demon that goes all the way back to when he first started. Like, even though both sides are the same, he must leave his family that he built together, because it was created out of wrong morals, and that's why he chose Team Angel because in order to move on from his past he must rid all of the wrong morals which is why he goes to Team Angel because they're founded on what's right, not about revenge, a fresh start for him, but like Lorne, Gunn had to go back one more time and put things to an end to his past. If this is what you meant, then forgive my misunderstandings, but that's not what I got from reading your post on Gunn, and believe me, I read it several, several times.
Next, Py, you went on with Angel...
You say he doesn't feel that he belongs in this new age world because its tougher, more confusing with gray areas...You say that, but never explain why...you give a simple gester and comment he makes but that really doesn't explain it all.
To me, Angel's character development during the Pylea arc wasn't about wanting to live in a Pylean form of society. I never got that during watching the eps, and I never got that from your point, mainly because you don't give it! And was that really the case now? Because before and during his trip to Pylea I don't see the burden of wanting to live in a Pylean society. You then mention him wanting to belong, and I agree. I did see how he wants to be accepted, but before he can be accepted he must,like the others, face his past...and that's why he was turned into his true form in Pylea, and having to accept who he is before he could be accepted by others. I don't think it was about confusing times or the other. Which place is better. I think it was about Angel accepting himself after all these years. I'm not talking about redemption or killing many people. Angel is a beast inside. And you don't normally see him fighting with the true beast, and I'm not talking about Angelus, I'm talking about the true demon inside, which is why it brings a nice picture of why he crawled into a ball and cried after he saw his true self. He came to terms. Moved on later. Mainly the Pylean arc is not about belonging, its about things not appearing what they seem. And Angel fits perfectly well in that point. On the outside he looks like a regular 'Joe' but he's not. I think it showed that he was a scared little human running from the monster inside.
And with Cordy, Py, you said she longed to be the princess, but had to let it go in order to belong...is that right? I don't really see any metaphor in her. Other than that she got her wish, and didn't like it. For years she wanted to be popular, and was. Then she left Sunnydale and became this regular person. Picture a movie star moving to Hicktown, USA...picture a reversal of "The Beverly Hillbilly's". Once Cordy left her "kingdom Sunnydale", she became a regular person. Not a famous actress. Not even rich and married to a billionaire. She was a hard working woman who longed to be treated like that princess that you spoke of Py. And she gets that wish. Her arc wasn't about belonging per se'. I mean, she wanted to belong in the famous eye, and her arc merely was a taste of her own medicine, showing that being a princess isn't all what it's cracked up to be, and then realizing that her life wasn't all that bad before. There wasn't really an identifying of herself that changed like the others. Cordy has already been through that during the first year when she decides she wants to help people. I think all that this was, was just giving her taste of her own wish, and not liking the flavor. So I don't see her making a change in where she "belongs" because she never quit with the dream of being someone famous and loved, because as what "Birthday" shows you, she still wants the fame life...only then and there a year later in that episode, does she then take a look at her life, and change like the others did during the Pylean arc.
And with Wesley, you said he was afraid of being the leader...While I agree with some of it, I don't see him being afraid to be leader, I see him seeing himself not as grand a leader as Angel is. To him, Angel is like theman to Wesley. He looks up to Angel just as a little brother would look up to his big brother. The little brother wants to be just like the big brother, but believes in himself that he can't be as good a grown-up as his big brother. Understand? And during the Pylean arc, I don't see where you came from with Wesley. He, the little brother, was given a chance to prove that yes he can be better than his big brother Angel. He became the Pylean "cows" leader. He formed an army in those men, who like him, believe they weren't nothing compared to the "bigger man". Wesley showed through gathering an army, and becoming a leader in those men, that he can be just as good a leader than Angel can, and that's what started the more tougher Wesley Wyndam-Pryce that was in Season 3 and onwards. So, Wesley showed that he could become a leader, and be as good a leader as Angel was. So, I don't understand what you meant about Wesley being afraid of being a leader, and therefore handing advice to Angel...all it was, was the little brother asking the big brother on what to do, because the little brother believes the big brother knows best...but durng the Pylean arc it changes in Wesley. They make him not rely on his big brother anymore, and show that he can be a leader without having to look up to Angel. I see that as not a failure in Wesley's arc,(as I @ssumed it meant in yours), but a big step in his character development.
If I misunderstood your points, again, sorry, because that's what I got from your posts, and didn't see them as that...
Plus, Py, again I mention the sense of it being rushed. And I don't see some of the points you tried to make...like, your points touched on a few of these things, but you never stated how it worked out for the character. What happened to change that thought in the character...you know, stuff like that I didn't see...This one just wasn't really your best I think. You've did wonderful works, but they always had that special "touch" that you alway's inserted, that really, was missing in your recent work. tjaman
Very well explicated. Slight redirect: Cordy's visions had become bonecrushingly painful and she was resenting the heck out of them. And if you remember "Belonging" itself, she was really hoping to break into commercials and she was still following that dream of fame and stardom. Then a beautiful man is plunked down into her life that makes her heart pound inside of her and will lift that burden from her by doing something she's just grinding for, and ... she declines. She realizes that she is a big part of CYNTHIA! because of her connection to the PTB and so declines his gallant offer to comshuck. That's some significant development.
Py said the same thing as you re: Gunn. You just used more words. Same with Wes. Also, his analysis was closer to the mark than yours re: Angel
Heroism -- the concept of heroism -- has always loomed large in Angel's character -- what it means, what it requires of him. It's a boring argument to me because he is a hero, which is part of why I found TCTN5 a little bit tedious at first, but yeah, in Angel's mind it's a mindblowing concept. It was explored a little in "City of," "Shoop" and "Epiphany," but it was driven home in this arc. Angel confronted the most graphic manifestation of the evil within, the pain and destruction he was capable of -- against his friends -- and freaked. He couldn't face it, and he couldn't deal. He was unwilling to face the Groosalaug because he couldn't face touching that evil again, and couldn't reconcile the source of his power with how he was using it -- even though he was, in fact, on the path of righteousness and saving puppies and all that good stuff. He felt like a fraud. Worse, he couldn't deal with Cynthia seeing that darkness inside him. As he said, he'd fired them to shield them from that.
He grew a lot from his confrontation with Groo, the realization that he -- Angel -- was in control, and could be in control, and could channel that power to fighting evil and could perhaps -- just perhaps -- earn redemption.
I will say this: While I may disagree with you, B+, I have a lot more respect for your postition than I did when you dismissed Py's critique in three lines.
Thank you, B+.
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Post by tjaman on Jun 7, 2006 22:14:51 GMT -5
S3x01 - HEARTTHROB
PyleansDontLeaveMe SO, are we discussing Heartthrob this week or what?
Am, I off a week?
Is this the time for observations and discussions? tjaman
No, it's "Heartthrob." I was watching "Lost" last night so I didn't get to it, but I'll tap out a few reactions this evening.
It's gonna be really hard to get my reactions in next week with all the new funny on Comedy Central at 10/9c, but I'll soldier on
Incidentally, what the heck happened to the Algonquin? Just curious -- seemed like a good idea, what? PyleansDontLeaveMe
We're still on. Went home sick yesterday afternoon, didn't get a chance to get us set up. But it's still a go. I'll make the neccesary prep at the Algonquin this afternoon grailwolf
*waiting patiently for C69 to take these two to task for denying us our promised Brilliant Insights™* tjaman
Quiet, you. You still owe us for one gentleman of Verona.
Heartthrob ... where to begin.
Impossible as it is to believe that Cordy has just allowed Fred to hang about in the dark recesses of the Hyperion -- which it occurs to me they never really explored overmuch -- we arrive fresh clean and new from demon hunting, kung-fu fighting with demon monks (and the camera having a moment with David's bum in white linen I'd have been fine struggling through to my death in complete innocence, but that's fine) and Fred peeking into the hallway.
If you get a look at the stuff she's writing she's really not that brilliant, but she's struggling with the concept of peace -- "trading one cave for another" as Cordy would have it. And again, it's impossible to believe Cordy did not grab her by the arm and drag her to the mall for a week or ten of shopping.
The visions are clearly killing Cordy which opens some nice plot potentials, and here we are introduced to the image of Phantom Dennis as a Floating Loofah, which is a pleasant intro and one fondly remembered on this board (the 'Tome -- Py vanished briefly in May of 2004 and his posts were spectral for a time). Dennis demonstrates so much comp@ssion for Cordy that the question of intimacy becomes downright intriguing.
But not for us -- we sad, we demon-obsessed -- to focus on this for Angel has yet another brush with his past, in the form of Elizabeth, a vampire with a true-and-forever love. It's just a tiny little world, but we begin to wonder why the Powers That Be are interested in barely saving these two persons from the m@ssacre.
It is legitimate, in that the storylines are about to explode, to notice the motivations of the PTB. Cynthia is not going to get there in time to save anyone -- well, any more than two people. Instead, Angel -- who has been out of the picture and away from their guidnace for three months -- comes face-to-face with the other motivating factor in his life -- his love of Buffy.
Sri Lanka was a vacation. While Buffy lay cold and dead, Angel headed to the hinterlands to unleash m@ssive gouts of aggression, but he wasn't whole yet.
It wasn't until he could confront the sort of sick depths True Love can drag a person to -- cut-out-one's-heart blood vengeance against any who stands between lover and beloved -- that he can face the fact that not only is he allowed to be OK in the wake of Buffy's death, but that he must be OK, or he's going to be a sick and wounded puppy licking his wounds for the coming season, and useless as a champion.
Do the Powers touch this level of emotional nuance? It's hard to say. So far they simply parbroil Cordy's brain and Cynthia snaps into action.
It will be interesting to analyze the kinds of tasks they set for him, the sorts of directives he is given, in terms of what their intentions must be.
In this instance, their communication seems less about helping the hopeless (why, for instance, couldn't the visions have come 20 minutes earlier and everyone could be saved?) and more about ultimately shoring up his resolve.
Incidentally, in terms of fighting James, why he couldn't just behead the guy is beyond me. Probably because it would have worked. Invulnerability is just a concept until one discovers a vulnerability.
Also, nice p@ss to Darla at the end. That must've been wildly exciting to see for the first time -- so many questions, I'm not even going to think about the inevitable disappointments.
If we didn't have that little bun in the oven, it's possible we'd never have had Jasmine. But we wouldn't have had that wonderfully sweet little gummybear Connor at the end either, so I'll allow it
We seem to be off to an inventive, eventful season. Charisma69
Great job on the brilliant insights TJ! grailwolf said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *waiting patiently for C69 to take these two to task for denying us our promised Brilliant Insights™* At least one person knows how to deliver them. Still waiting to hear from Py and grailwolf.
*Was that better grailwolf? Sorry, been a little busy with school. I'll make sure to get on your case much sooner from now on. * tjaman
[blushing] Aw, shucks. Py's just gonna blow 'em outta the water when he gets a chance, but it's sweet to hear. Thanks. [/blushing] Aunt Arlene
Most of this stuff is more insightful than any term paper I have ever written. I lean towards the "look at the funny little people in the box" approach to episode analysis.
Me: Oooh, look! The big guy in the black flowing thingy is biting someone. Someone Else: Why? Me: Don't know. Mongo only pawn in game of life.
Then I would laugh to myself while this Someone Else slowly backed out of the room.
I'm sorry. What was the question again? tjaman
Now you know exactly what I felt like moments before erecting the statue to Py.
Why must that sentence insist on sounding naughty in this forum? Aunt Arlene TJ said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now you know exactly what I felt like moments before erecting the statue to Py.You know, if you elaborated on that a bit, you could make a fortune with the book rights. tjaman
That is a great opening line to any of a thousand novels.
And only some of them naughty. Bango!
*giggles*
Tj's erecting the...PY. PyleansDontLeaveMe I'm laughing so hard I may pee.
And those were indeed brilliant insights, TJ.
I've often wondered the same thing about the PTB's real motivations. tjaman
* blushes *
* faints * PyleansDontLeaveMe
I know, I know, the woods are lovely dark and deep, all that.
OK,
Brilliant insights, don't fail me now.
I'm going to tackle a great big chunk of things here, because it seems like there's a related thing going on-
The first four episodes of Season three seem, to me, like a series of establishing shots cunningly diguised as individual episodes, the purpose of which is really just to get us all on the same page and clear about where everyone is at.
Which is really a pretty durn clever way to go about cementing the break between Angel and Buffy after the network switcheroo, when you think about it. We have establishing shots/episodes of; Angel - Heartthrob, Cordy - That Vision Thing, Gunn, that old gang of mine, and oddly enough the structure of CYNTHIA as a whole in Carpe Noctum (which going by structure SHOULD be Wes' episode darn it! I wonder what that bodes for the rest of the season? Will Wes be shuffled into the background as a character, or does he have SO much focus later in the season that it would overbalance things to give him an indivual episode here?)
It's not until episode 5 - That's Fredless to you and me - that the ongoing plotline really gets underway. Before that we're deliberately teased with Pregnant Darla as if to say 'Yes, we know. Just hold on kids, we got some REALLY good toy commercials coming up, I swear!'
OK- SO much for overview- Individual episodes ahoy-
to be continued after I smoke...
PyleansDontLeaveMe
OK- Onto individual episodes - Caffeine and nicotine supplies replenished.
Joss, being the clever man he is and reasonably historically aware, is clearly up on one of the most painful truths from American History-
America never really forgave Jackie Kennedy for not mourning JFK for the rest of her life.
We wanted her to remain a symbol of grief and mourning so that we could forever use her as an icon of what we lost.
The problem of course is that she wasn't an icon per se. She was in point of fact a human being who grieved, recovered, and moved on with her life.
Heartthrob is about that. In fact, as far as I can see COrdy's monologue at the end about how moving on and continuing with your life is in fact honoring Buffy's memory and not betraying it might as well have been individually sent out to the viewers on greeting cards, because it was certainly just as much for us as it was to Angel. 'Please don't hate him for moving on. We're not going to wallow in Buffy's death. Life goes on, as do the show's plotlines.'
Heartthrob is basically responsible for making sure the viewer knows all the basics from the boys own handbook of interesting facts about ANgel - many of which are very subtly conveyed but wonderfully present
A: Angel is a vampire. They have him vamp out right in the first action sequence to reaffirm this
B: Angel's true love, whose name was Buffy, died a few months before. They set this out clearly in the very first scene before cutting to ALL-MONK-ACTION.
C: Angel is mourning Buffy. Again, set out clearly in the first scene at the hotel. His fight with the monks can be seen as a metaphoric purging of his rage. Check.
D: Angel, for those who didn't know, used to be evil and is now working on his redemption. And this is a clever one. The flashback to establish James and Elizabeth at first seems to just be there to let us know who the hell they are. But it's also there to give us Angel's backstory and curse info - thoughtfully clarified in later dialogue just to make sure we are all clear.
E: Angel is going to get over Buffy's death, and that's ok. It's good in fact. It's part of greiving. Don't hate him for it. Well, pretty much the rest of the episode is all about this. In true Joss fashion the point is made by showing someone who is NOT doing that exact thing and showing the consequences. Showing how shallow and selfish James looks by allowing his loss to consume him and essentially just throwing his life away over it. We wouldn't want Angel to do that, would we? Of course not. So we agree then that the show should get over Buffy's death and move on? Well, you must, you agreed that what James did was wrong, right? The audience is basically outflanked into believing that we should all just move on from Buffy's death, which is a dang clever way of heading off complaints that Angel 'Doesn't seem sad enough' a few episodes down the line. Angel's guilt at not feeling worse at the end of the episode is just the final seal on the issue.
F: Angel has a loving family unit that provides him with support. Cue the present giving scene, one of the most charming and touching moments of family interaction in Cynthia that we ever see and I love it to pieces.
G: Angel's family unit fights monsters. Cordy has her vision, the team works together beautifully for once (and this is why Cordy refuses to leave Angel's side- to reinforce this very point)
H: There's this frightened chick named Fred in the hotel who they rescued last year. DOn't worry about her, she's not terribly relevant yet. The scene where Angel yells at fred to get back in her room is deliberately played for laughs to make this clear. If Fred was truly in any danger in this plotline we know we would never be invited to laugh at her fear. This is a solid way of re@ssuring viewers to disregard characters that aren't relevant to the current events, and not the first time Joss has used it to get us to sideline characters in our mind for the sake of streamlining the plot.
So in the end, not a whit of actual plot development for the season has actually occured other than to get us, the viewer, to agree that the season will NOT be all about Angel mourning Buffy. We've been effectively briefed on all of Angel's backstory that we really need to know for ongoing events, and we're all on the same page with what's going on with Angel.
And now, as a reward for going through the exposition of the episode, we get a juicy little after dinner treat of pregnant Darla as a hint of our plotline rewards to come. tjaman
Loving these insights -- keep 'em coming, you righteous font of Brilliant Insights™ writing dude!
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Post by tjaman on Jun 7, 2006 22:47:29 GMT -5
S3x02 - THAT VISION THINGticktock44
So is tonight the night we discuss That Vision Thing? Or is the WB giving Angel a break for a week? Charisma69
No, tonights the night. Just everyone seems to be slacking off on giving their brilliant insights.
I'm waiting guys ... tjaman
* yawn, stretch *
... sleepy now ... weird Cordy visions and Skip and Lilah's terrible hair and levitating exposed brain guy tomorrow ... The Seer
*starts screaming like a little girl* EEW..... exposed brain guy tjaman
"That Vision Thing" as an installment was somewhat ill-considered, but not as badly as Lilah's hair, which was just distractingly terrible.
The problem with it is, after realizing last week I really wanted to start exploring the motivations behind the PTB, I wasn't allowed to, because "that vision thing" was just another evil scheme by Wolfram & Hart.
After Fez removed the effects of his little encroachment on the celestial pipeline <-- Lorne's words, btw, not mine -- Angel was justified in killing not just him, but ...
Y'know what? I'm just gonna call him Billy. Not because I've been reading ahead of course. It's just that he seems like a Billy.
... Billy, and Lilah, and the henchmen and everyone.
What they did to Cordy was torturous. And they used her to get to him, and they indeed got to him. Rat bastards. Angel would've been perfectly within his rights to unleash unrelenting hell on them. So in terms of retribution, just destroying the shaman was unsatisfying, regardless of how dramatically cool it was.
Also, I felt his confrontation with Holly Hobby Hair was terrifically unconvincing. Where was the Lilah of "Supersymmetry" who had a vampire in her very face and shrugs him off -- indeed, insults him? Where is her shiny-thighed-she-of-the-pert-bootay? Where is the sassy head of W&H Special Projects?
What the heck is Gavin there for? To prove how pointless and ineffectual W&H can actually be?
I wonder, distractedly, if they ever produced a work order for Gunn or not. And I realize I don't care. Nice little interlude between him and Fred; two cute kids who look cute together.
I do need to understand at some point where Cordy's dislike of Fred is stemming from. If it's just that Fred is following Angel around like a puppy dog, that isn't enough for Queen C of Sunnydale to consider her an actual rival, is it?
Motivations were hard to gauge in this episode. I think the writer was left a little in the dark.
And speaking of hard-to-read ...
Skip. Seems like he must be a good guy. This, however, is only implied by his breezy manner and cool piercings. It is suggested that he's on the side of good and saving puppies and whatnot, but I think being employed in the incarceration of a black hat is not the same as being a white hat, and it'll be interesting to rewatch a few of the upcoming episodes with that in mind.
And not all motivations were muddly. Cordy was being very honest about the fear she felt about this current batch of visions. She'd wanted to appear brave and steadfast in the face of everything -- a few short months after reconfirming her commitment to whanging headaches and much with the vague, all for the good of the team, she is deathly afraid of them.
I sort of remember what's coming up, but I'm really looking forward to watching it all again.
One question: He took them to his home dimension. He helped rescue Cordy. He got his head chopped off taking one for the team and got flung across the room and knocked unconscious for awhile (again, another installment for "Perhaps Ill-Considered Plot Point").
So why is Wes still calling Lorne "The Host"?
* sigh * Never mind.
As for next week, sort of mostly looking forward to "That Old Gang of Mine." Even relatively boring installments of "Angel" are more interesting than most of the veck on television, so whoo. hoo.
tjaman
I need to point out that I haven't seen Cordy making with the Brilliant Insights™ for some time -- though it's always nice to be cheered on, of course. But what did, oh, anyone else think about "Heartthrob" or "That Vision Thing"? Aunt Arlene
I have been trying to catch up, but I have been stuck in season 1 for a while now. When I finally catch up, I will wow you with my lame ass attempt at insight. Mr Nasty
Regarding Cordelia's apparent dislike of Fred, I don't think she was too impressed with Fred's cowardice at the beginning of "Heartthrob". She also wanted to be left alone to deal with the visions on her own and Fred represented Angel's watchful eye.
That's my lame-ass Mediocre Insights. tjaman
I love insights. grailwolf
I'm having a real problem with this thread. First, I just don't have the time to re-watch the episodes right now (between work, election coverage, Daily Show, Lost, Smallville, and wanting to make sure I'm getting my money's worth from Netflix... oh yeah, and eating and sleeping). I should be able to take more active part in that way in the summer and maybe the winter hiatus.
Second, the level of discourse is just way too good. Let me 'splain. See, in most discussion groups if I don't manage to re-watch the episode or reread the book or whatever, I can still fake it. I just wait til someone says some things and then a combination of my memories of the show and ideas sparked by the initial analysis will carry me through.
Not here.
TJ, when you or Py analyze an episode, it stays seriously analyzed. In most groups, I can come up with something that the other folks didn't notice, but you guys say everything there is to say about an ep and way better than I think I could. Add to that C69's ability to pull out all the best quotes and it's really pretty intimidating.
So don't take lack of posting as lack of interest. I always read your analyses and love them. I guess I don't say so very often because there's only so many times one can type "You rock, TJ" (or Py or C69) before feeling like a toadie. But the feeling is there regardless. tjaman
* head swells up so much he falls over backwards in his chair *
* rubbing injured skull * Wow -- thanks g'wolf.
Do what the rest of us do -- just have kindly ol' Doc Sparrow remove your sleep for you. Charisma69 tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I need to point out that I haven't seen Cordy making with the Brilliant Insights™ for some time -- though it's always nice to be cheered on, of course. But what did, oh, anyone else think about "Heartthrob" or "That Vision Thing"? That is so unfair! You know I'm behind on some of my assignments at school. Plus, there's new episodes of "Lost" and "Desperate Housewives" to watch as well as season one of Nip/Tuck to catch up on.
And, Wednesday night I'm in my night class. I don't get home until 11:30 pm unless I have a test.
So, as you can see I should be excused from providing any brilliant insights until the semester is over.
That doesn't mean I should be excused from reading the ones you provide. grailwolf said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Add to that C69's ability to pull out all the best quotes and it's really pretty intimidating. See, grailwolf still thinks I rock. tjaman
You do rock, Cordy. [christopher walkenesque]You're just less forthcoming. Lately. With the insights.[/christopher walkenesque] And as I said earlier, I love insights.
I'm kinda in the same boat as everyone else, tho. On the one hand, I never got a chance to bloviate much about these eppies their first time around, and I love the chance to do so now.
On the other hand, who knew there was ever actually gonna be stuff to watch on Wednesday night ever again? Even with the "Rescue Me" season over with, there's still "Lost," new eppies of "South Park" and I haven't completely made up my mind yet about "Drawn Together" -- it seemed to be running a little slow last night, but there were some hilarious bits, too. It might get better. Add in "The Daily Show" and "Tough Crowd," and Wednesday becomes a fairly media consumptive night.
In that all of this is completely subjective -- and because the WB in their infinite wizdum would probably be scooting it around the grid anyway -- maybe we should watch our S3 eppies some other night than Wednesday?
I know some people are watching Tru Calling, and others are watching Joan of Arcadia (and Friday night's just a bad night anyway).
How about Tuesday at 9/8c? Is Tuesday at 9/8c bad for anyone? I'm willing to look at Monday, too.Charisma69
We could just do like they do over at the Buffy forum. They do their "It must be Tuesday" thing with watching Buffy, only they give a week to discuss each ep.
This way everyone can watch when they get a chance and then post their brilliant insights.
Their thread was going pretty well the last time I looked. They start each new ep on Tuesday night.
With the homework situation I never know when I'll have time to catch an episode. This way I can just watch it whenever I have the time. tjaman
Well that's kind of what's been happening here. We watch the episode Wednesday or so, and then post whenever we get a chance -- kind of like every other show.
I couldn't post any Brilliant Insights™ for "DH," for example, 'til Tuesday, and y'all had to wait 'til today for my "Angel" comments.
At least I feel comfortable posting them, tho. I'm really uncomfortable about posting in the "Lost" forum. That is one spooky groupa cats over there. ... Charisma69
By popular request -- okay maybe just by tj's request -- here is my attempt at brilliant insights for That Vision Thing.
Overall I think this was a pretty good installment. We got some funny lines from Wesley, Cordy, and Fred. I'm really starting to like the new girl. She adds an interesting dimension to the cast.
We also see that Cordy's visions are getting a lot worse. Of course some of the worse turns out to be thanks to Wolfram & Hart, but I don't think the blinding headaches are their fault.
I wonder if these visions are going to keep getting progressively worse? Cordy did seem really defensive about them. I think she's trying to keep the gang from knowing exactly how bad they really are. tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ After Fez removed the effects of his little encroachment on the celestial pipeline <-- Lorne's words, btw, not mine -- Angel was justified in killing not just him, but ...
Y'know what? I'm just gonna call him Billy. Not because I've been reading ahead of course. It's just that he seems like a Billy.
... Billy, and Lilah, and the henchmen and everyone.
What they did to Cordy was torturous. And they used her to get to him, and they indeed got to him. Rat bastards. Angel would've been perfectly within his rights to unleash unrelenting hell on them. So in terms of retribution, just destroying the shaman was unsatisfying, regardless of how dramatically cool it was.I think the reason Angel only went for the Shaman was because he was the only real direct threat to Cordelia. He knew that Lilah would keep using the Shaman on Cordy anytime she wanted Angel to do her bidding.
He would have been justified in killing the rest of them, but he's trying not to be that dark anymore. Killing all of them would be along the same lines as locking Darla and Drusilla in the wine cellar with the lawyers. Angel has progressed past that, he has moved on. Therefore it would be wrong of him to just kill Lilah and the others. We wouldn't want him going on another broody downward spiral now would we? tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I do need to understand at some point where Cordy's dislike of Fred is stemming from. If it's just that Fred is following Angel around like a puppy dog, that isn't enough for Queen C of Sunnydale to consider her an actual rival, is it?I don't feel that Cordy disliked Fred at all. I think she just wanted to get rid of her so she could be alone. She obviously doesn't want the gang to know just how bad her visions have gotten. She also had a splitting headache so she probably wanted to just lay down in a dark room until it went away.
I'm sure she just didn't feel like having to entertain Fred, and she also didn't want anyone to realize how much pain she was really in.
Also, this is Cordy we're talking about. She was always a bit of a snob. Cordy of old wouldn't have ever had anything to do with someone like Fred. Even though she has improved she is still Cordelia, the biggest Bitca in Sunnydale High.
Exactly how cheery are you feeling when you have a splitting headache?
Now for the funny.
Wesley: I suppose it's one of the unwritten laws of being a d1ck. Ah... ahem... a sleuth, a gumshoe, a sherlock. Gunn: All I know is, you use the word d1ck again and we gonna have a problem.
Ah Wesley. Even though he seems to be getting tougher by the minute it's nice to see old geeky Wesley on occasion.
Fred: (To Angel) I've been forking with Gunn.
That line is just way to funny. I wonder if it could possibly have any implications for the future? Could we see Fred and Gunn getting together? They do have some chemistry.
Cordelia: (to Fred) Wow. Next to you, I'm downright linear.
And, even with a terrible headache Cordy comes up with some snarky goodness.
Wesley: (to Gavin Park) Well, now that we've had this lovely reintroduction - I suggest you piss off.
And, a good dark Wesley line. Could you imagine Season one Wesley saying a line like this? Sounds more like something Giles would say.
Speaking of Gavin. He's Jin from "Lost"! I knew that guy looked so familiar but I couldn't place him.
See, all roads really do lead to "Buffy" and "Angel".
Now, since I managed to take time out of my busy schedule to come up with some, well maybe not Brilliant Insights but at least I came up with insights then you can too Grailwolf.
Who needs sleep anyway?tjaman
Cordy giving Fred the bums rush at her apartment was understandable. But we also had the three months of Fred hiding in a hotel room where she didn't make with the bonding.
'Course, Angel trying to not be Angie so much makes sense. Nice redirect.
Jin? Really? I've got to watch a little closer. Off hand it seems possible, but Gavin seems so much more ineffectual than Jin. Nice range if he is. You're the one with the DVD and the cast list, of course, so can confirm it. I can't even visit IMDb without my computer crashing.
Thanks for the Brilliant Insights™, Cordy! Charisma69 tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jin? Really? I've got to watch a little closer. Off hand it seems possible, but Gavin seems so much more ineffectual than Jin. Nice range if he is. You're the one with the DVD and the cast list, of course, so can confirm it. I can't even visit IMDb without my computer crashing. Yup, I recognized him right away. Then I went to check and make sure I was right. I was right. Same guy.
But don't just take my word for it. Here's a link. tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for the Brilliant Insights™, Cordy! You're welcome Tj.
Now we just need to get grailwolf to deliver the goods.
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Post by tjaman on Jun 7, 2006 22:53:23 GMT -5
PyleansDontLeaveMe
That Vision Thing
An introductory primer to Miss Cordelia Chase
That Vision Thing, while I still think it can be viewed as an establishing shot of who Cordy is and how she fits into things, has an awful lot of setup bubbling under the surface.
First off, its main job is to make sure that we know everything that we need to know about Cordy, her visions, and how CYNTHIA! uses them.
The very first scene accomplishes a lot of this job. We start with Gunn and Wes discussing with a very ominous air the visions that Cordy recieves. Fred is even on hand to ask about them, allowing Gunn to just flat out clarify for the entire viewing audience what the visions are, that they come from the powers that be, and that they are incredibly painful and that they're worried about Cordy because of them. Because we start with such a sinister overtone, we believe that the visions are creepy and ominous, and we are frightened of them. It works, because it's set up tonally so well. When we get the reveal of Cordy actually being clawed by the visions its both a surprise for the long term viewer and a suspicion fulfilled as far as the thought of the visions as dangerous to her.
Fred is, again, used primarily for comic relief here, and so we are again re@ssured - nothing's going to happen to her. She's pretty much in a holding pattern. Don't worry about Fred for right now.
And yet- we do get that adorable scene of her and Gunn walking in the night - a setup for later perhaps? Just a tease, nothing more.
And of course that scene also introduces the new 'threat' of the profoundly irritating Gavin Park, showing the Hyperion invaded by fake exterminators. We get to see Gunn defending their home, broadening the sense of family structure.
And what about Gavin? We are introduced to him in the teaser so that A: we meet him for the first time, and B: we can learn about Cordy's shallow streak, in equal measure. He's there so that Cordy can go on about his suit and shoes, giving us a little more character info. As an example of one scene accomplishing several things, the teaser is pretty darn effective.
Gavin also allows us to re-establish the character of Lilah, simply by not being her. He works in his weaselly paperwork and bureaucratic way, so that we can be shown how much more comprehensive and evil Lilah really is. Which can lead directly into the reveal about what's REALLY causing the current visions, which again just underscores our understanding of what the 'real' visions are. Clever, huh?
The new painful visions also lead us to having Fred take Cordy home so that we can learn A: Fred is kind B:Where Cordy lives, and C: We can meet the incomperable Phantom Dennis. It also, more importantly allows Fred to show her braininess by suggeting tracking the visions which allows us to re-establish Lorne as the means of doing that- once again confirming to us who Lorne is and what he can do as well as being one of the few instances of the production team actually doing something innovative and interesting with Lorne's powers. They usually acted as more of a hindrence to storytelling than a help.
And of course all this leads to the scene where Cordy confesses her fear of being 'unclean' which frankly reveals more about her character than anything we've ever seen from her before. We also are shown that Angel cares enough about her to throw out the rulebook completely and work for whichever side he has to in order to save her life. Hmmm... wonder where that will go later in the season.
As a complete bonus we also get the setup of Billy - Mr. CharBroil 2001.
So, Angel effectively closes the loop on the whole 'hacking into Cordy's brain' issue to reassure us that it won't ever happen again, and its purpose has really been served. Through the hacking into visions plot we've reexplained Cordy, her background, her current life, her fears, and her visions. We've been able to use it to introduce a new enemy, reestablish Lilah as well as Lorne, and to continue to tease out our complete lack of a firm grip on Fred's character. PLUS -- the bonus dangling plot thread of Billy which we can come back to when and where we want to later in the season -- a dangling little thread of guilt for both Angel and Cordy which we can mine for a payoff later on. It's greatly to Mutant Enemy's credit that they realized that there was no need to force a resolution into this story- already overcrowded with everything it needed to accomplish. A lesser show would have felt the need to tidy up that loose end immediately.
PyleansDontLeaveMe
I'm a ball of fire! grailwolf
Billy from That Vision Thing.
Oh, wait I thought this was the quote thread. Angelu§fan that "oh my god I'm on fire" btw. But we never hear it thanks to skip. tjaman
You completely forgot to mention Skip.
But look at everything you did mention, he does fade into obscurity.
I love these insights. "Mr. CharBroil 2001," heh. PyleansDontLeaveMe True - The lack of skippage in there is lamentable. He is of course the stealth plot point - We had no idea that he would ever even reappear, let alone become as significant as he did by the end of season 4.
That's a sleeper agent, man. tjaman
So ... is he good or evil? grailwolf
*backs slooooowly out of thread* Angelu§fan * runs out of thread shouting* Not again!!!!!!! PyleansDontLeaveMe
Skip is evil, pretty clearly. That still doesn't neccesarily mean that Jasmine is though
OK- that hornet's nest stirred up...
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