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Post by tjaman on Jun 8, 2006 20:34:56 GMT -5
S3x03 - THAT OLD GANG OF MINEtjaman
"That Old Gang Of Mine" has been decried as irrepressibly drab and awful elsewhere in this forum.
On rewatching it, I respectfully disagree.
First, some nice development on Gunn. It's always good to check motivations once in a while, and Gunn is still relatively new in terms of being committed to CYNTHIA. He is not a Fang Ganger. Gunn was in charge of his own crew only a year before.
It is interesting to note in the protracted standoff that Gunn was so unforthcoming about what "the mission" was. That he didn't accuse the gang of killing demons who weren't a threat to anyone. That he didn't participate in the differentiating.
It is possible that he was, himself, still being convinced.
It took a while for Wes to get Gunn on board with investigating the deaths of demons that posed no threat. The slurpee demon (who, sorry Py, wasn't a "real hero of Angel," but did have a nice, if very brief, turn on the screen) -- the balancing demon, completely non-violent, as opposed to the baby-killing demon Gunn shot himself.
The vampire with a soul. Gio was way off base on his read of Gunn. Gunn knew that his undead sister needed killing. He knows what a vampire is. He knows what attacked him in Pylea. And he knows that -- between his old crew and CYNTHIA -- that CYNTHIA has a better operating comfort level working within shades of gray.
This was a nice little hint of future attraction between Gunn and Fred. More than the "forking" comment, Gunn's smile when he saw Fred singing "Crazy" (and what a delightfully appropriate choice of song and delivery) was brief and real -- nice implicit development there.
And something a little more longterm. Cordy suggests to Angel that Fred is talking to the shrubbery. Later, Illyria confirms that she indeed communes with plants. This is less comic than it might be otherwise if for no other reason than Illyria's comedy is always unintentional. Fred giggling at a particularly ripping bon mot from the begonia is hilarious and at the same time, for that reason, almost heartbreaking.
It'd be wonderful to know what Cordy's discomfort around Fred stems from. She breezed by Willow without so much as a shudder -- she's not intimidated by her big brain. So what's the what, Cordy?
Cordy who hasn't had a real vision for a couple of episodes ... ?
The joke, at this point, is getting a little tired. All it takes for monsters, gunfire and explosions to erupt around her is for someone to tell Fred everything's finally gonna be ok. Ha. Ha. Ha. Gotta get over that -- it's getting lame.
What was cool was that Fred stepped forward and took charge, taking control of the giganimous crossbow (just like she grabbed the biggest gun in "Home") and shifted the balance of power for a moment during the standoff.
It'd have been interesting to know what Gio did. Lord knows they had plenty of time to find out. Couldn't have been a bigger crime than what he did to "Wind Beneath My Wings."
Gunn: Quit reading me. Lorne: Sorry -- you're a billboard.
Lorne's poor club. No one even bothered to acknowledge his loss at the end. They were too busy being scolded (Wes: "Don't ever withhold information from me again or you're fired") or working through the advanced stages of testosterone poisoning (Gunn and Angel's exchange was good writing, but a lot more portentous than it ever, ultimately, merited).
Gotta love the Furies, however. Lotsa good characters introduced in this episode.
And we get to see Gunn's room.
I'm missing bunches, so anyone wants to fill in I'd love to hear, and absolutely, let's get some discussion going.
I'll give you a topic:
[linda richtmann] "That Old Gang of Mine" is neither old nor mine -- discuss! [/linda richtmann]ticktock44
A touching yet shocking episode. That Old Gang of Mine may be my favorite episode yet. It focuses mainly on Gunn and his past, which is very nice because there aren't nearly enough Gunn episodes. I don't see what some people have against this episode.
First and foremost, Fred, only because she really stood out during the episode. it's so horrible that one of her first moments in which she's exposed to the world again has to be a moment filled with violence. Cordelia promises Fred that'll she'll be safe and Fred is betrayed, not by Cordy but by the world.
I think this whole situation made Fred more vulnerable and more insecure with herself and others.
When Fred is given the opportunity to kill Angel in order to escape and she doesn't that really proves that she's ready to be part of the team and that she'll be loyal to Angel and the "mission"
Gunn-
I think that Wesley's comment to Gunn near the end should be very highly regarded. Wesley isn't very sure of himself in his new position as the boss and both he and Angel know that while Wesley may have the title of the boss Angel will always be the leader. Wesley telling Gunn off is a good example of how strong Wesley can be when he decided to take charge.
Plus what Angel says to Gunn at the end. Is Angel unsure of his ability to stay good?
Caritas: Poor Lorne, Caritas is his life and what he considers to be a sanctuary for all. Gunn's buddies not only destroy Caritas they hurt Lorne and Lorne's confidence in himself.
Despite all the fantastical drama there are some hilarious moments. The whole beginning exchange between Angel and Merl! Angel: "Come on, take your best shot." Wesley: "Angel, please..." Angel: "Come on, Merl." Merl: "You see this? He's goading. He's goading me." Angel: "Take a shot, Merl. Come on, this one's free." Merl: "No. No. Shameless with the goading. You see?!" Angel: "Come on, Merl-la-la. Merl-la-la-la."
Hee hee, I love that! Who says souled, broody vampires can't be adorable? Another exchange I adore… Furies : "This is not a debt you can pay." Cordy: "You don't know that. My credit has been very good this last year." Furies: "Only Angel is equipped to make good on this debt."
Wow! Angel is like a prostitute…a little frightening no? So what's next week's episode? Oh yeah and I know it's Tuesday but I couldn't wait..PyleansDontLeaveMe
That Old Gang of Mine
A brief history and overview of Gunn
I love Gunn. Heck, I heart Gunn. I am a certified Gunn nut.
So why do all the Gunn-centric episodes feel a little draggy to me? I don't honestly know.
This episode continues the trend of establishing shots of our crew, but also in a very real way serves as closure on Gunn's divided loyalties plotline from the end of the previous season. It is in its own way an exquisite examination of who Gunn was, who he is, and how someone grows and changes as they encounter the wider world.
I think the strongest aspect of this episode is how adamantly it refuses to draw Gunn's street gang friends as ignorant or wrong. It steadfastly refuses to embrace the cliche of 'young black street thug' that pretty much every other show on television wallows in. It's portrayal of Gunn I have already commented on many times. WHat's interesting here is that it draws the examination out to include Gunn's old friends as a way of really showing us where he came from. And, as so often is the case in the Whedonverse, what they are is shown by given us a clear presentation of what they are not.
Now, on first reaction to Gio it's tempting to say that ME has been guilty of exactly the 'black street thug' stereotype that I was just extolling them for avoiding, but that is actually the point. He is a thug, and it's a wonderful step forward for black characters on television in a certain light.
I'll couch this next discussion in terms of gay characters, because I feel more empowered to discuss the process in those terms, but I do feel that the same is true for black characters.
At first in television, no characters existed except for straight white people, and as a result the characters of straight white people could be good, bad, or any interesting and complex shade of grey in between. When gay characters began being introduced, they were represented in cliched form, as wacky next door neighbors, figures of mockery. As they emerged more and more, they stopped being figures of mockery and began being the most impossibly good, noble, whiter than white look how perfect I am kind of characters one can imagine, because the fear was that if you showed a gay character to have any kind of negativew quality at all it felt like you were representing ALL gay people as having that negative quality. Because gay characters were so rare, they felt more significant individually, as if they were representatives for their entire demographic. Only very VERY gradually has this begun to break away to the point where each individual character can be seen as a character study in themselves, and not as an indictment of an entire people.
It's incredibly brave for ME to present Gio- a truly repellent character- and to be able to have the confidence in their presentation to know that it won't be interpreted as a racial slur- merely as a specific character in an hour of television.
The ability to view characters as individuals instead of as 'The Gay character' or 'The Black character' is a tremendous step forward toward appreciating everyone as unique individuals, regardless of race, sex, sexual orientation, or whatever.
There, soapbox rant over.
So, we have the character of Gio to counterpoint both Gunn AND Gunn's former crew. In the character of Gunn we are shown a man who has come from a specific point of view (vampires and demons are bad, end of story) and gone out and encountered the world, revising, examining, and changing his viewpoints based on the larger truths he encounters- learning to live in a larger and more complex world. It's very much a metaphor for growing up, really.
On the other hand we have Gio- who was forced to leave his little niche in Miami, but instead of going out and encountering the wider world chose to replicate the exact same little closed off niche that he had left - refusing to grow.
ANd in the middle we have Rondell and the crew who are repeatedly shown in contrast to Gio to simply not have encountered the larger world in the same way that Gunn has. They had a strong leader in Gunn, and Gunn has moved on. WHen Gio, another strong personality showed up of course they followed his lead. Because Gio - as much as he was all about violence and thrills, was not always wrong about demons. Gunns crew are not bad people, they truly believe that they are doing what is right.
WHich brings me to the other striking and incredibly bold thing about this episode- The baby killing demon. It would have been so easy to have the show be about how wrong and misguided Rondell and his crew were to attack Caritas because look how nice and fluffy and cuddly all the beings in there are and why can't we just join hands and sing Abraham, Martin and John...
But - Backing up the greater moral complexity that Gunn is finally realizing he has accepted- Rondell and his gang are NOT always wrong. Of the six demons they killed - two were catagorically evil. Of the members of caritas, at least one ate babies. ATE BABIES. It doesn't get much wronger than that.
Which is exactly what I was saying about judging as individuals rather than as a group. We wanted all the demons to be cute fluffy puppies because it made the discussion very simple, and it's simply not. Just because we love Lorne doesn't mean he's an example of all demons. He's not. He's an example of Lorne.
OK, so backing up- what does this show accomplish as far as reacquainting us with one Charles Gunn?
The opening scene shows us Angel trying to apologize to Merl-
This reminds us that ANgel was mean for a good chunk of last year, AND shows us Gunn as one of those trying to make the peace between Angel and Merl. Gunn gives Merl a ride home, for the love of God. Reluctantly, perhaps even grouchily, but he does it. It also reminds us of the sanctuary spell in Caritas, which will come in handy later on.
The very next scene after the credits we get the quick dream sequence recap of Gunn and his sister to fill us in on the 'dead sister vampire issues' (It's nice in these establishing episodes that they found such a variety of ways to remind us of everyone's history. This was the only dream sequence used in that effort, and so it feels fresh and different.) We're then drawn to Merl's death scene where we are quickly reminded that A: Gunn is touch and go with all these dealings with demons and doesn't like them much and B: Restates that Wesley is nominally in charge of Angel Investigations.
Cordy and Fred's scene in the courtyard is absoluetly precious and again reinforces 'Fred's still cookin', don't worry too much about her just yet' And I adore Amy Acker's reading of the line 'Oh! Oh? Oh.' just wonderful. It's a bit of a cheat that - after using her as comic relief again to assuage the fear of danger - Fred gets that big old burst of blood in her face - but we're still left with the general sense that Fred is in no real danger. SHe even gets to show some chutzpa by pulling the crossbow on Gio.
OK, I've gone on way too long about all of this, but a few more quick points-
We've reestablished Gunn's backstory with Alanna, Gunn's backstory with his crew, and in that wonderful last bit about 'Doesn't mean I can't work with you. DOesn't even mean I don't like you. Just the way it is.' or words to that effect show a wonderful snapshot of a man who has made peace with his prejudices. He knows what they are, and he knows when to put them away. Beautiful.
Also- interestingly enough - we're presented with the concept of a member of AI keeping information with the group and in a very real sense betraying them with the best of intentions, only to be forgiven by the group afterward once they understand his motivations.
And it's Wesley who gives him that speech.
Which is some interesting forshadowing- considering what is to come,
Oh- And the writers finally write out Caritas - which has long been growing as a plot problem since most plots could be short circuited by just popping down there to ask Lorne what's going on. Sure- They rebuilt it for about five minutes later on- but that's another discussion...tjaman
I am loving this discussion -- almost too much to derail it with a "If a baby-eating demon is ipso facto evil, then a person-eating Power That Was or whatever she was is, by the very same token, evil as well," because I know where that will lead.
Just trying to confirm you in the courage of your convictions, PyGuy. Do carry on. Angelu§fan Now if C69 is not happy with that she's just S.O.L. AND I don't mean "standers of learning".Cause that was beautiful py, just beautiful. Can't wait to read your next one. ticktock44
Those were great insights Py, you are a insight God!
Somebody mentioned the fact that Jasmine might not be evil in front of tj, crazy kids...
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Post by tjaman on Jun 8, 2006 20:49:34 GMT -5
S3x04 - CARPE NOCTEMtjaman
I want to revive this, but I haven't seen the next eppy yet.
According to the guide, we're at "Carpe Noctem."
I could watch "Carpe Noctem" tonight and natter about it tomorrow, I imagine ...
Anyone want to join me? PyleansDontLeaveMe
Yes. I am with you in this proposal. I promise to be good and follow throughtjaman
Carpe Noctem is sort of a stand alone, and again -- no visions we might use to analyze the motivations behind the Powers That Be. They haven't been especially large with the visions lately.
Because it's sad. As they ran it, it seems like this entire adventure was a fluke, based on Angel's discomfort in confronting Fred about her hero worship.
It was a good case. But their progress on it was a little deus ex machina. If that guy hadn't been peeping out his window at exactly the right time, Angel wouldn't have gone across. Also, his body exchange was clumsy. When a guy is holding an artifact and starts with the Latin, do not let him finish. He even knew what it would do and he just stood there.
The acting was pretty good. David played the aging hipster pretty well, and the guy did a reasonably good job of channeling Angel. It wasn't as good a job as Sarah and Eliza did in channelling each others' characters, but to be fair, the old guy's character is pretty well undefined.
But again, what a ridiculous situation. Are the seniors incarcerated? The guy should be able to use the d**n' phone whenever he wants!
I'm gonna let Py feast upon the hilarious assumptions the guy made about Angel and Wesley being gay. I'm just gonna jump in and look at Lilah and Fred. Poor Fred. Her little heart was just going pitter beep whenever she was with Angel, and then she sees him with Lilah. And here they'd already been building little places for her to leap off onto Gunn and Wesley (Wes' body language at one point was decidedly assertive and would've made more sense if Gunn and he were specifically pawing the earth over Fred). Instead of crying in an elevator, Fred should've been up in her room being angry. But I guess that isn't where Fred is yet.
And Lilah ... well, when the demon takes over, Marcus (was that his name? I've already forgotten) should've been even less in control, and Lilah should be a bloodstain and a memory. I guess it's a good flash forward to the end where he is taken down by Fred and Cordy hitting him over the head with sticks.
Mostly this was a comic entry, but I'm troubled by how easily Cordy flits to afterthought land when she doesn't have a vision. More to the point, however, she at least had something to do. Poor Fred can only stand there wanting to help in some way.
They need to find some sort of task for her.
This is a light entry, but I've gotta get to work. I can maybe do more on this later. I'd love to talk about Angel's reaction to almost dying when he was in this guy's body.
And on that sentence ... Charisma69Py said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes. I am with you in this proposal. I promise to be good and follow through*Arms crossed, foot tapping, waiting on PY to make good on his promise and follow through* PyleansDontLeaveMe
Oy, does my Shroud of Rahmon work count for nothing, woman?
I promised, I know.
Give me a li'l bit to finish up some work here and I'll sound off Charisma69Py said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I promised, I know.
Give me a li'l bit to finish up some work here and I'll sound off Have we learned nothing from the tea?
You should know better than to make promises of brilliant insights around me and then fail to deliver them.
Just because I've been really busy of late does not mean I'm not paying attention.
You just tell your employer that you'll have to put off working so you can deliver those brilliant insights to me.
I'm sure they'll understand. tjaman
Don't worry about it, Py, this woman is insatiable. In that she's demanding more Brilliant Insights™ without so much as acknowledging mine suggests that mine are, sadly, inadequate.
Puts one right off coming up with any, it does ...
[screaming skyward] Can NO ONE MAN satify this woman's need for ... Brilliant Insights™? [/screaming skyward]
Charisma69Tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't worry about it, Py, this woman is insatiable. In that she's demanding more Brilliant Insights™ without so much as acknowledging mine suggests that mine are, sadly, inadequate.Your brilliant insights are far from inadequate tj.
Sorry I didn't say anything earlier, I was in class you know. I can only type so much without drawing attention to the fact that I'm not actually paying attention in class.
Those keyboards are so noisy.
Also, I've only had a few hours sleep thanks to all the group projects so I'm a little scattered.
Your insights were most brilliant, I thoroughly enjoyed them.
I promise I'll be more appreciative of everyone's brilliant insights after the semester is over and my time belongs to me again.tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Puts one right off coming up with any, it does ...Don't even joke like that. You can't cut me off, I so need those brilliant insights. It's what helps me get through the week after having to deal with moronic group members and a run in with a deer on the drive home (Very funny in "Tommy Boy," not so much in real life).tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [screaming skyward] Can NO ONE MAN satisfy this woman's need for ... Brilliant Insights™? [/screaming skyward]That is so true, NO ONE MAN can satisfy my needs for ... Brilliant Insights.
I demand satisfaction from all of you - especially tjaman, py, grailwolf, and even occasionally b'man.
I'd also like to see more brilliant insights from Aunt Arlene, crazygolfa, ITL, and Dr. Feigy Pants (and anyone else who's feeling particularly brilliant).
I am truly insatiable. The Seer
Hey, where did Feigy go anyways? I haven't seen her in ages.tjaman
Paging Py ...Feigy Pants
....Did someone say my name?
ahem...okay, I can make with the brilliant insights...what episode are we on again?Angelu§fan It's a coin toss between Carpe Noctum and That Old Gang Of Mine. So take your pick. Charisma69Feigy said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ....Did someone say my name?
ahem...okay, I can make with the brilliant insights...what episode are we on again?Yeah, I mentioned your name. Nice to see you hear again.
But you should beware of promising to post brilliant insights and then failing to deliver.
I might just annoy you to death about it. tjaman
Um, A'fan, this week we are actually on "Fredless." Well, that's the one for this week. If Feigy wants to do "Carpe Noctem" (last week) or "That Old Gang of Mine" (the week before), of course, she's more than welcome to.
We love insights. Feigy Pants
C69: I never make promises....I said I would, but I didn't promise lol I know, I know a bit of hair splittage going on there, but hey, it's what I do.
Ahem...Carpe Noctem...
Yet another episode that tears down the stereotypical manly hero who is always infallible and never does anything dishonorable. Granted, Angel was taken over by some old horny dude, but to take it from Fred's perspective, these are the things we are dealing with.
The slightly annoying aspect of this episode has to do with the fact that it took forever for his "closest" friends to figure out it wasn't him walking round in his skin. Now, Fred, slightly understandable, but the others...well OK, this has been the crux of the entire series so far. They NEVER seem to know until it's practically too late. Which makes sense, as it would be no fun if it were that easy....but still annoying.
The old guy...had to feel sorry for him a little...but we soon give that up for the realization that we all have that part of us that longs for a second chance to fulfill our dreams...except then it just becomes really pathetic and sad. Angel has yet again managed to have more humanity than some humans....wow what a great lesson to learn...I bet that's something he should hold onto.
David was great at channeling "old, pathetic, booty cruiser, guy." He managed a smarminess that only a reject from the 70's wearing a leisure suit could manage.
I think there is some slight foreshadowing for Fred in this episode. I think we may find that she is now looking to redefine what she thinks she wants in a guy. oooh who will be that guy?
OK, I know That old gang of mine came first, I think...but I couldn't pick so here goes....
Basically, this episode was showing us what often happens to people in "Urban" areas who are involved in the group (gang) structure... the only way to get out, is to die...and now we know the reason why. In this case, it was the gang against the demons and the decision to fight those demons in a more "conformist" kind of way. On one hand Angel and his team represented a rival gang or the enemy, and Gunn was choosing to sell out. On the other hand, because of Angel's vampiric nature, he represents the very thing that brought the group together. Thus representing a betrayal on Gunn's part.
The basic lesson learned by Gunn in this episode, IMO boils down to realizing he hadn't betrayed the mission, but had found a different way of carrying it out.
Gunn has up to this point, always felt separate from the group because he had ideas about the world based on the need to survive. The only way to survive is to make judgments about things so that you can take decisive action.
I think he is beginning to understand that to take action based on snap judgments, is to miss out on untapped resources to achieve his goals....He may have to learn the limits of that idea before it's all over...He may end up learning the hard way what happens if you make no judgments at all.
mmmkay, was that brilliant enough for you? I'd say more but I feel all rambly as it is....Charisma69Feigy Pants said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ mmmkay, was that brilliant enough for you? I'd say more but I feel all rambly as it is....Very brilliant Feigy, you keep your word much better than some of the guys around here. Even if you don't actually make promises. Angelu§fan Sorry I kinda got confused on witch episode we were on. Great insight Doc, anyways. PyleansDontLeaveMe
And then there was Carpe Noctum.
Whew.
How many brilliant insights can one man produce in one day?!
As I said above- This should be Wesleys episode, dangit!
We had Angel, we had Cordy, we had Gunn, this should be Wesley's!
I suppose it's very telling that it isn't. It's like the case of the dog that didn't bark.
Oh- And I meant to say earlier- I totally agree with what everyone said earlier about these episodes. Particularly TJ's stuff on Old Gang and Fredless. as well as Ticktock's. Oh, and Dr. Feigy's Fredless- I have some thoughts on that when I get to that one.
But- Ahem.
Carpe Noctum
I have to admit that my thoughts on this one aren't particularly prolific. I've just never had a lot of patience for Comedy of Misunderstandings in any of its myriad forms. It's a perfectly valid subgenre- I just don't connect with it on any significant level. I find myself getting impatient for everyone to figure things out.
This episode does give us a few nuggets
It confirms - as we've long expected - That Lilah was never more than a drink or two from getting it on with Angel. Passion is almost never entirely hatred or entirely lust or entirely love. Usually its a hearty blend of the three.
It confirms that Fred has a doozy of a crush on Angel, which we also were pretty sure of. And it fairly gratuitously sets her up and breaks her heart with the Lilah-Walking-in-on- which is good drama but doesn't particularly further anything.
Although I do have a slight disagreement with TJ that at this point in Fred's character development it was perfectly in keeping to find the smallest possible space and collapse in it in tears. She hasn't had her epiphany moment in Fredless yet, after all.
Marcus is charmingly presented as a set of outdated perspectives- what with his rampant sexism, apparent homophobia, and subtextual racism (assuming Gunn to be the delivery man)
CYNTHIA! works well together as a team here which is always a joy to watch. Sigh. Ah those halcyon days or however it's spelled.
And that's pretty much my thoughts on this one. I feel bad for not liking it more than I do. It's actually a bit of a chore to rewatch which is not something I can say about many Angel episodes.tjaman
No, you're right -- that is in character for Fred in this eppy. I want to re-read what I wrote, but yeah, absolutely.
tjaman
* hearting the beep out of the Geek Club this week *PyleansDontLeaveMe
Actually- TJ makes a perfectly fair point about the Baby eating.
Worthy of further discussion actually, but probably not here
PyleansDontLeaveMe
OH MY GOD, I FORGOT THE GAY PART!
Yes, Wesley was indeed the gayest thing ever in his sensitive sweater with his pot of tea. That scene is just absolutely priceless and quite frankly makes the episode worthwhile to me.
God bless Alexis and his willingness to go all the way for the comedy value.
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Post by tjaman on Jun 24, 2006 15:05:06 GMT -5
S3x05 - FREDLESSFeigy Pants
OK, I think I'd like to talk about "Fredless" even though no one has had the chance to discuss my contributions to the other episodes...
This episode had a slightly different meaning for me. While watching it, I was reminded of the fact that I left home when I was quite young...13 in fact. Where I ended up wasn't all that different from where Fred was all that time. However, the episode tried to mislead us by putting a suspicious light on Fred's parents. The fact was, I left home because my parents were pretty messed up...so, it was natural for me to follow along the suspicious trail the episode was leading me to.
Thus, I was quite surprised, and more than a little relieved to find out, that the problem was was not that her parents were bad, but that she was struggling with the idea that Pylea changed her for the worse and that she didn't want her parents to know. I think that another important idea is, that Fred believed she had changed and her parents hadn't, and that difference would surely prove that she was worse for her experiences.
In the end, Fred learned that those changes weren't all bad, and that her parents still loved her. She also learned that instead of hiding after the trauma, she needed to put that fear to good use. So, this episode got to me on a personal level that didn't totally suck. I think Fred gets her self-esteem back in this episode as well. I am excited for her new found confidence. I too experienced a similar confidence boost after my return from hell. Great epy! The Seer
Why do people say Fredless sucks, I like it. tjaman
[applause] My, we have missed you, Dr. Pants [/applause]
I agree with The Seer. Why does anyone hate "Fredless"? Heck, on its most basic level, it's the episode that brings Fred in as a part of the team, and not just in some: "Fred's in trouble. It must be Tuesday." capacity.
Again, I can't help but notice that Cordy hasn't had a vision in like a month. Are we sure she's still the conduit?
Things we must point out:
Cordy and Wesley's one-minute scene is worth the entire price of admission:
CORDELIA: Let me break it down for you, Fred. (as Buffy) Oh, Angel, I know that I am a Slayer, and you are a Vampire, and it is impossible for us to be together, but -- WES (as Angel): But my gypsy curse sometimes prevents me from seeing the truth. Oh Buffy -- CORDELIA (as Buffy): Yes, Angel? WES (as Angel): I love you so much I almost forgot to brood! CORDELIA (as Buffy): And just because I sent you to hell that one time doesn't mean we can't just be friends. WES (as Angel): Or possibly more? CORDELIA (as Buffy): Gasp! No! We mustn't! WES (as Angel): Kiss me! CORDELIA (as Buffy): Bite me! ANGEL: How 'bout you both bite me?
Too wickedly funny. I was like to wet my pants the first time I saw that and it hasn't lost any of its comedy. Cordy's Buffy is hilarious. She must have had so much fun with that scene. And Wes, oh my God. Too funny.
Now, the next 20 minutes or so are kind of lifeless, I agree. Under normal circumstances, Joss relies on music to heighten dramatic tension -- not to supply it. And there was a decidedly "painted on" quality to the tension in the scenes with the Burkles.
Oh, yes absolutely -- meet the Burkles. It must have been deeply challenging to make such fresh-faced, honest, open folksy-type folks seem sinister. I'm not sure I totally bought it the first time I saw it, either. I loved their introduction to Angel Investigations, however. That was funny. Gunn, Cordy and Wes being very glib about their usual caseloads and discovering "Hey, um, these people aren't actually coming in from the 'verse."
This passage was somewhat unsatisfying from the perspective of Fred's character, too. The woman who handled a stray sarcophagus, a mind bent on discovering the whats and whys of life, whose curiosity Wes cursed a little after her death in S5, this at-her-core scientist, does not see her parents and run and hide. Oh, not that they didn't attempt to explain her reaction -- and it was a beautiful attempt -- but that wasn't Fred.
Back in Caritas (I wonder if Angel ever settled that sex debt with the Furies, btw), Lorne is watching Judge Judy and licking his wounds. This was the point at which they invited him to set up his bar in the Hyperion, yes?
No. They never did. And that would've been, y'know, nice. In that they were responsible for the destruction there.
Lorne being all prickly wasn't true to Lorne, either. The man who puts up with a steady stream of demon destinies for, y'know, awhile -- by his own design -- is upset at CYNTHIA? Hell, he's had at least two weeks off. And as a business owner he had to be insured so I'm really not buying the squalor.
But here's another thing. In a brazen attempt to make her parents seem evil and broody, the writers have made Lorne unnecessarily vague about Fred's destiny. "You haven't run far enough" was not geographically. She needed to get herself out of Pylea, out of that cave. And that whole exchange about terry cloth and eyeliner was just plain out ordinary filler.
If nothing else, he's secure in his demon-ness.
Anyway, when they finally tracked her to the Hyperion -- oh, I'm sorry, I mean the bus station, and not the Hyperion with a few ferns scattered here and there -- when they found her in the bus station, the writers had exhausted all their ideas about how to maintain the illusion they'd built so tenuously and let it collapse.
And good riddance. That was a terrible idea.
All of that filler stuff could've been used getting Lorne to move in with them. No, it's not where they all were as characters and not where that relationship was, really, but moral obligations are moral obligations and it would've made for a nice in-house sort of obscure and mysterious oracle.
You realize of course that there are now giganimous bug things living under L.A.
Yes, I know. They call themselves "Hole" and they tour a lot.
Fred's contribution in saving the day was intuitive and nicely worked out. But Wes should've come up with that, sorry. I'd say he got a pretty good look at the bug.
It is nice that the writers allowed Fred to actually do something, so I will forgive them.
I don't think this was a standout episode. But it was pretty good.
And I liked that Mrs. Burkle got to help, too. PyleansDontLeaveMe
OK- Bringing it on home-
Fredless
The plot of the season starts to get underway
There is an inherent problem with being known as the master of misdirection, and it causes a serious problem with this episode.
Knowing- from the outset- that the Burkles are going to turn out to be benign, how do you play it? You can either play them up as sinister, causing us all to believe that we're being misdirected and thus not being surprised by the end, or you can play them as sickly sweet concerned and innocent and thus have no big surprise twist per se except the one that exists in the minds of those of us familiar with the formula.
The script actually rather deftly splits the difference and portrays them as innocent with just the coyest hint of something going on with them that we don't know about- which is enough to leave us floundering about which direction to assume we're going.
The production however kind of heavy handedly overcuts this with the creepy build-up music leaving us with a bit of a dissonance between intent and excecution. I think that accounts for a lot of the problems TJ was speaking of in the previous page.
This is a story about dealing with the aftermath of traumatic events.
Unfortunately, this is somewhat bad news for Cordy and Wes in that neither of them have any particular aftermath to deal with at the moment. Even Charles only has the implications of That Old Gang of Mine, which he pretty much dealt with at the time, barring the fallout from Lorne (and let's be honest- did anything Gunn did actually cause the destruction of Caritas? He's guilty by association at most.)
Angel is recovering from the aftermath of dead again back again Buffy.
Lorne is dealing with the aftermath of the destruction of Caritas
And of course, the big one, Fred is recovering from the aftermath of Pylea.
The real mislead is of course what exactly it is that she's recovering from. And it's that point that struck me as particularly interesting in what Dr. Feigy Pants said in her touching and thoughtful overview of this episode on the previous page or so. Dr. Pants and I both brought extremely different baggage with us to the episode, which resulted in vastly different perceptions of what exactly was going on with Fred. Both are equally valid, but it strikes me as interesting how much what we bring with us to these shows affects how we interact with them. A sign of good writing, I think.
I won't review what the delightful Dr. P. said in her review, but I will say that I saw things for Fred from a different angle.
Having said that I will no go completely roundabout in my explanation
Angel is dealing with the aftermath of Buffy. However he deals with that aftermath it's clearly effective, despite the fact that we never get to freakin' hear what it is. Maybe that in itself is the key. He dealt with it on a personal level and moved on. He's not wallowing in the wreckage anymore.
Which brings us to Krevlorneswath of the Deathwok Clan. Again, I have a slight disagreement with TJ as to what's going on with Lorne here. I think that it's no coincidence that we get the follow up to the destruction of Caritas here because the theme of dealing with wreckage is so inherent in what this episode is about. Lorne is literaly wallowing in his wreckage. He's petulant, he's angry, he's rubbing his own face in what's happened to fuel his anger (anger being far easier an emotion to deal with than grief) This is a fairly common way to deal with trauma. To keep it fresh so as to prevent the onset of the painful healing process.
Is this why he gives Fred such needlessly nebulous advice? Is he just in a bad mood and taking it out on Fred? I don't really think so. I think Lorne saw clearly in Fred how she is dealing with her wreckage and how it is no more effective than his way of dealing with it. I think the combination of that, plus being forced by Angel to defend who and what he is rather than 'pass' as human gave him the final push to start putting his life back together again.
Fred is adopting the 'If no one knows what happened then it wasn't real' strategy. She's hiding. She's allowing the collection of defensive mannerisms that she acquired to survive to become her new personality just to prevent herself from having to acknowledge that what happened to her really happened.
I think Lorne realized that that's not something you can be told. That's something that you can only realize once you've run as far as you can and discovered that it still wasn't far enough to stop the hurt. That's why I think Lorne said what he did to her. Well, that and to mislead the audience about the Burkles.
And Amy did such a gorgeous job of portraying that moment when it all crashes down on her. She is so desperately afraid of seeing her parents and yet wants and needs to see them so badly. WHen she sees them, hears them, tells them what happened to her, it means she has to acknowledge to herself that it happened- something she has not previously had to do. While she avoids them there is still that little girl Fred out there somewhere that she was when she left her parents. SHe's desperate to avoid admitting that that little girl has gone forever
It's like a dissociative avoidance- shelving her entire being to avoid the wreckage.
Like Lorne sitting and wallowing in the wreckage
Not like Angel, accepting the wreckage and moving onward.
I also love that Mrs. B. gets to run down the bug with the bus. Everything after that point is really superflous- in my opinion.
For one thing, is it just me or is Cordy not terribly convincing in the moment when she's hoping Fred will visit? Angelu§fan Like I said before: C69 if you ain't happy with those you're s.o.l. Cause I know that,those will keep me occupied for a good long while. Thanks PY:) PyleansDontLeaveMe
My brain hurts Angelu§fan Well go rest and get some drinks over in the hyperion, my treat. tjaman
Well done, Py. I was actually anticipating you having a better read on Lorne than I did, and you did not disappoint.
Wes' wreckage comes with he and Cordy's longing for parenting. Both of them have such needs. But except for the hint we got when Wes called old Rodge on his birthday, we know more about what happened with Cordy's parental units. We are less familiar with the sting of her loss. Is she angry with what they did or angry that they were taken away from her?
Wes' reaction was much more gut-level. He resents the way Roger Wyndham-Price makes him feel about himself. He knows it's not entirely valid -- he does bring something important to the Mission -- but he can't help feeling it.
That's kind of the baggage I bring to these discussions and I'm surprised I didn't include it in my comments. I definitely reacted to it when they were all sitting around talking after Fred left.
We have done some seriously important work here today. Cordy's head should be buzzing from all of the good in here today.
At least until next week.
Excellent insights, everyone, and again --
Well done, PyleansDontLeaveMe. Feigy Pants
I guess I really could have written more about those eppys considering the lengthy responses I've seen....sheesh, and to think I was worried about blathering on too long. I'll keep that in mind next time.
By the way, I'll have to go back and finish reading all that, it was a bit more than I was prepared for at the time. Charisma69
Wow! *brain goes on overload from all the seriously great brilliant insights*
Fire bad. Tree Pretty. Feigy Pants
Well, I've gotten round to reading Py's insights into Fredless, and I think he explained it better than I did. I took it down a personal road, and I do think that Fred was hiding. But more specifically, she was hiding from who she was before her life in Pylea. Her parents were a part of who she used to be, and she was afraid that she would see in them, how much these past years messed her up. She actually stated in the episode that if her parents were there, than it meant that what happened to her, was real. Or rather it was stated the other way around but meant the same thing.....
I won't continue on however, as I'd just be reiterating what Py managed to cover. But I think that Lorne's comment that she hasn't run far enough boils down to the idea that when we avoid things, we most usually have to run ourselves into a tight spot before we can solve our problem... Which was probably already stated here in one fashion or other.
I'm almost starting to feel a bit inadequate about posting in this thread. Py and tj certainly raise the bar quite a bit. I'm in awe of their ability to provide so much brilliance when they are surely just as busy as I am in life. How do they do it?? tjaman Personally, I heart the beep out of your insights, Feigy. Whole new windows on eppies.
I agree that we all love the show and we all see such different things when we watch it. And when we bring our own backgrounds to our analyses we come up with some truly thought-provoking reactions -- not just to the show but to each other.
I'd like to see this level of discussion for every episode. Charisma69
tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'd like to see this level of discussion for every episode.
So would I. That's what this thread is supposed to be for.
Feigy, your insights are just as brilliant as everyone elses and you brought up more things to discuss which snowballed into even more brilliance.
My mind is still in awe of all the brilliant insights from yesterday. Great stuff guys, keep up the good work.
I hope to join in myself when the semester is over. PyleansDontLeaveMe
I also really love Feigy's responses.
And I think your take on Fred is totally valid from Fredless. What's more, it's an angle on things that i had never before really thought about- so I say take it down those personal roads whenever possible, we all seem to really love the discussion
Plus, my take on Fred is every bit as much a personal road as yours was, honestly
So, this next wednesday is Billy, right? Or am I still behind a week? tjaman
No, it's "Billy."
Looking forward to it quite a lot, too. PyleansDontLeaveMe
I'm just relieved to be caught up on promised insights for a bit.
Now just that review in retrospect of The Girl in Question and my Algonquin stuff to catch up on and I'm golden
Oh, and Il Papa needs to respond.
Oy, I'm never gonna be caught up, am I? tjaman
You deserve some compensation for all of the tireless work you do around here, Py, so in addition to your statue in the Hype, I'm going to establish the "Let's Give Py Some Dosh" slush fund.
And I'll get the ball rolling with a generous donation. --> Charisma69
Billy is up for next week? Cool. I am so going to have to make some time for that one.
Maybe I'll have them take away my sleep. I mean it worked out great for Lorne. What could possibly go wrong? tjaman
That's what I told g'wolf to do back on Page 10 or so, but he clearly hasn't taken my advice.
I keep forgetting to bring this up -- tt44 did a very nice analysis of "That Old Gang of Mine" a few pages back as well. I'm hoping it wasn't our lack of direct reaction that kept her from posting more.
We don't always get to respond specifically to any one person's insights. I do read all of them and I really do enjoy everyone's take on things -- or, at least hearing it.
That being said, I hope she stops in for "Billy," too.
You too, g'wolf, and Mr.N, and ITL -- hell, everyone with a copy, please, join in and sound off!
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Post by tjaman on Jun 24, 2006 15:28:22 GMT -5
S3x06 - BILLYAunt Arlene
I thought I'd put in my two cents on Billy.
We start out with Angel training Cordelia how to fight. Well, we see Cordelia wanting to learn to fight. Angel seems to think that she only needs to know enough to keep someone busy until Angel can swoop in to save her. Fortunately, Cordelia sets him straight.
Billy has apparently been roaming around freely for a few days, but has been returned to Wolfram and Hart. When Lilah enters her office, we see Billy chatting with Gavin. Congressman Blim, Billy's uncle, arrives to take him home. (Anyone else thinking William Kennedy Smith?) Soon after they leave, Gavin starts channeling his character from Lost and then starts beating Lilah like a red headed step child.
As a result of Cordy's vision, the gang learns about Billy's recent exploits. Angel goes to question Lilah about her client's ability to inspire country songs. She is visibly battered and jumpy, but she still manages to tell Angel to get lost. I found it interesting how frumpy they made her look. Not just the bruises, but the brown clothes and her hairstyle as well. Who knew Lilah could look frumpy?
While Wes, Angel and Gunn are at Billy's latest crime scene, Cordelia is heading out to find Billy on her own. She starts out by visiting Lilah and calling her a vicious bitca. This leads to one of the few interesting shoe conversations ever carried out on television. I loved Cordelia's line for getting through to Lilah. "No woman should ever have to go through that, and no woman strong enough to wear the mantel of 'vicious bitca' would ever put up with it."
Meanwhile, Wes and Fred are at the hotel studying Billy's blood sample. Wes asks Fred about Cordelia's whereabouts, but he sounds less than Weslike. I thought that his line to Fred, "Lie to me again - and we're going to have a problem" was one of the creepiest lines in the whole episode. This whole scene in the office between Fred and Wes was pretty creepy. As the scene progresses, Wes sinks deeper and deeper into his misogyny until he finally slaps Fred.
Fred runs away from Wes to the upper floors of the Hyperion. Gunn finds her and they hide in one of the rooms. They discover that Gunn has been affected by Billy's blood as well. Fred is forced to knock Gunn unconscious with a nasty looking chair leg. Wes starts to chop down the door with the world's dullest axe, and it starts to seem too much like The Shining. When Wes finally chops a hole in the door, I expected him to stick his face in the hole and say, "Heeeere's Wesley!" I was extremely happy that Gunn didn't save Fred. She was able to save herself.
Cordelia tracks down Billy at a small airport. She seems perfectly willing to send him back to Hell by way of a crossbow arrow. That is until Angel stops her and says that he can't let her do it. (Similar to Gunn not letting Fred kill her professor later on, and we know how well that turned out.) Billy touches Angel and we're supposed to think the worst. It seemed too obvious somehow, that it wouldn't work on Angel. I'm not sure why, but I remember immediately thinking that it wouldn't work. Anyway, Angel and Billy start to fight and it seems like Angel will save Cordelia. It can't end that way, as that would be a very sucky ending. Gunshots are heard and Billy has obviously been hit. Cordelia and Angel look over to see Lilah looking much less frumpy in a black leather jacket and holding a gun. Yay Lilah! tjaman
Yay, also, Auntie. You analysed that one down to the ground. I look forward to watching it tonight.
Thanks for the Brilliant Insights™ -- and for keeping that bar way high up there.
Means fewer of us walk into it and bump our heads.
tjaman
"What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?" "Nothing you haven't already told her twice."
I can't decide if the inclusion of that joke was bad writing or further demonstration of how out of character Wes was acting.
This was an extremely interesting installment, and big with the psychology, although I'm a bit troubled by the implication of "the devil made me do it" behind domestic violence.
But why am I starting here when I've been waiting for a month for some VISIONS!
I was wondering if this scene -- "the THX version" -- was sent by the PTB because it was a case even this group could solve.
Clearly the Powers are upset about Billy's rampage. They took him out of this world for a reason and his presence is ticking them off ...
... more than a demon congressman who is the American version of royalty (caught the John-John reference but only glancingly). Congressman Blim is ruining lives wholesale, probably, just by living his Enron pension-fund depleting look-the-other-way-on-the-environment shred-the-Constitution policy-writing day-to-day, and the Powers are worried about a single demon inciting individual acts of violence from which at least some victims are walking away?
The Powers do not have what passes for their heads on straight.
I'm going to start narrowing my eyes at this tendency of theirs to fight small battles. Because it's possible that if Billy were to walk the earth unfettered he could incite the violence that killed the woman meant to defeat Blim in the next election cycle, for one example, but that's getting a little bit too "Joan of Arcadia" for me.
We're only given individual stories, lives they're saving by the handful -- heck, lives they're not saving at all. At some point, Doyle's gotta pop up from somewhere and say, "Y'know what? I think the Powers might be too interested in maintaining the status quo to actually be of any use to you. You just investigate whatever the heck you want."
Because the idea was to keep Angel connected to his humanity. And now he's just basically their errand boy.
It's a little hard to understand.
I loved Cordy in this episode. Her smackdown with Lilah was the stuff of legends. It's too bad she really only gets lines like that so very rarely. It was a nice window on the old, shallow, pointless Cordelia and her transition into something far more important.
And while Cordy is trying to assert herself more ("Go team!" was a riot, by the way), Fred is still basically bait. But even more compelling than the Rube-Goldberg device she built to protect herself was Dark Wesley.
Did Alexis Denisof turn in a performance or what? I mean the man was dead on. Dark Wes with an axe is an attention-grabber.
How perfectly did Denisof, his not-especially-powerful body tracking Fred around the Hype, find that character? And how perfect was J. August Richards' transition?
Y'see, not that good. But it wasn't his fault. After the red rises, everyone else just lost it (except for and-the-Oscar™-goes-to Angel). Gunn kept himself under control.
Still, shades of Nicholas Brendon in "Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered" -- oo, Wes and Gunn fighting over Fred -- or near Fred -- or to kill Fred, Wes motivated by something he's still articulating, Gunn motivated by rage. But while Gunn's nascent love for Fred is yet forming, Wes is smitten -- just not in an especially attractive way.
I love that she's able to forgive him. Fred takes it in the chest more than once this season, with "Angel" in "Carpe Noctem" and now this.
Gavin channeling his inner Jin ("Lost" reference Cordy pointed out) -- against Lilah. Intriguing. I can't imagine he gets away with that, but yet he's in many more episodes. It'd have been fun to be a fly on the wall at the next staff meeting at W&H, but then probably you'd get eaten by a passing Frog.
Meh, get over it Angel -- so you're melodramatic. Deal.
It's interesting about the distribution of blame in this eppy beyond just tracking the baddie-du-jour. Cordy seems determined to take the blame for Billy's release on herself -- greedy about it, almost. Is she being a drama queen or a realist? A bit of both, perhaps, but I can't put the blood of those murdered women on her hands -- nor Angel's. Those were W&H's kills. The manipulators of ineluctable events to unleash a destructive force on the earth vs. the ones who effect the unleashing is no more or less than arguing whether the carpenter or the hammer has more to do with the driving of a nail.
The confrontation between Cordy, Angel and Billy at the end was pretty good. And, of course, Lilah.
Anyone else hear "The Avengers" theme playing as Lilah walked off? Would've fit perfectly. And speaking of music, how 'bout those Gorillaz at the party? Very, very cool.
Shades of Caleb in the dirty girls reference, in Wes harking back to prehysteria -- hell, in that cabbie. Some interesting things to explore.
Why do men, for example -- in this case, exclusively men -- lash out? Frustration, maybe, feelings of inadequacy, but ... violence? Again, as explored ... something primal. Angry. Really ugly. Yet -- as presented by Denisof ...
... chillingly charismatic.
Which was a bizarre reaction.
* actually troubled by this *
... until I remember ...
Carl, in DH, saying "the heart wants what it wants," and quoting Thoreau in "the mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation," and Susan's retort: "What, does he think most women lead lives of noisy fulfillment?"
It's official ...
... we all just get on each other's nerves.
But to close with a perhaps misremembered quote from William of Baskerville in "The Name of the Rose":
"I can't believe God would introduce so foul a creature into creation without providing her with ... some graces."
Very cool eppy. The Seer
tjaman said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dark Wes with an axe is an attention-grabber.
Anyone with a axe is a attention-grabber. Aunt Arlene
I didn't think it was cheesy, necessarily, just very similar. tjaman
Sorry Auntie -- I didn't run back to see exactly what you'd said about it -- I thought I'd remembered you not being terribly impressed. My bad. tjaman
Oh -- I see it now -- you weren't terribly impressed with the axe. I'll fix it. grailwolf
I am totally in awe of the Brilliant Insights, folks. I only wish I could contribute. Alas, I haven't had time to watch the episode, and since I can only post from work at the moment I also don't have much time for lengthy cogitation (I've been trying to keep up my side of a debate in the "There is a God" thread in the Member's Lounge while only typing for about 30-40 seconds at a time and it's not easy!).
Anyway, great job everyone. I swear we should publish a book of these. Feigy Pants
Well, if the tome doesn't get all freaky with me, I would like to post my comments about "Billy"
I apologize ahead of time if I repeat anyone else, as I plan to go back and read the other "Billy" contributions after I'm done.
Now, here's the plan...I'll start out taking the show as a whole, and then move in to specific areas...
I was not sure the story of abuse was best served by the idea that the demon blood made it happen. Psychologically, we know that abuse of the nature depicted in the episode comes from insecurity, fear, anger, etc.. and the inability to communicate such feelings or ideas to others. For example, the boss belittles [you] at work...the abuser will go home and take it out on his wife....
My point is, Billy was like a concentrated dose of these emotions/feelings. Now, the demonic part comes because it is not just that he has these issues himself, but that his blood can infect others with such a violent mixture....
Okay, now...How do our men handle such an infection? Well, one at a time....
Wesley, he was hanging from a thread was before this happened...As we saw in "Fredless" His insecurities, fears, and unfinished business that he eluded to, was fairly relevant in this episode. The reason Wes was creepy rather than just plain violent and mean is because of his intelligence IMO. The smarter you are, the better able you are at providing the mental and emotional abuse that could take down even the strongest of women.
(though realistically, his attempt at emotional abuse wasn't really effective, as it is an ongoing process)
Gavin- He is the embodiment of the disgruntled male who has pent up anger, and a large dose of inferiority and insecurity...I tend to think that Lilah is the perceived source of much of those feelings. So, being the bad guy that he is, he did not resist the violence at all (assuming resistance is a factor at all...and I think Gunn may be an example of this...)
Gunn- I think that he is all too familiar with his warning signs. That is to say, he has seen what fear and insecurity can do to a person. So far, Gunn has shown surprisingly little insecurities with himself on the show. Or at least has always had some outlet for them at any rate. I think these are some of the reasons he was able to resist long enough to warn Fred, besides the need for plot movement.
I just can't help but read into the fact that Wesley was the most effected by this situation. I think we might see why he tends to keep a tight reign on himself and has a hard time talking to women. Will this be a turning point for our Wes? And will it be good or bad?
Lilah and Cordy...Well, both of them, formidable women. Lilah was our cautionary tale in this episode. Yes, even a strong vicious bitca such as she, can be violated and degraded by violence. So, if you take it lying down, you will always be knocked there again and again...even if it's just in your mind. And let's face it, that's how abusers keep control...Once they prove they can physically harm you by doing so, soon, all they have to do is raise their hand and you will cow down. Pretty soon, it's all just emotional and you find yourself doing things to keep from angering them and suffering the consequences....and you go from being a strong person, to a fearful insecure person who believes every nasty thing he says. Sorry got too serious there....
Cordy and Lilah's scene was a summation of that but with humor, wit, and great shoes.
So, needless to say, this episode disturbed me, on the human level...but now I gotta start in on the PTB....
WTF is up with them? Okay, wait, maybe Angel has to work his way up the ranks of heroism or something ... That's the only thing I can see that makes sense! I mean I saw some people who were far more deserving of being put out of their misery than "Billy". Like say..his uncle for example? I bet that guy is killing loads more people than Billy has. But maybe isn't quite ready for the big big bad yet....I guess he really is still on Doyle's mission of involving himself in humanity.
Okay, I'm actually getting tired and no one is going to read all this anyway lol. But the PTB are confusing the heck out of me right now. Maybe that's the point....
Disturbing but good this eppy was. Aunt Arlene
Of course we read it all. Just loved your Yoda-like last line. Charisma69
Feigy said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Okay, I'm actually getting tired and no one is going to read all this anyway lol.
I read it and loved it Feigy. Great brilliant insights!
Feigy said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Disturbing but good this eppy was.
Great line. tjaman
Good explication, Feigy -- I liked your approach on this eppy. grailwolf
Very interesting take on things, Feigy. I had noticed the same thing about relative ability to control Billy's induced madness, but I hadn't really thought about why. Obviously Gavin is the most susceptible, as he just decks Lilah pretty much immediately (a little surprising that this episode wasn't the end for him after that). Wes seems to slip into his rage a little more gradually, then Gunn actively fights against it for a time.
In Wesley's defense, perhaps he didn't fight it because he didn't know what was happening until it was too late. To extrapolate from what Feigy was saying, I think that Wes has always kept such a tight rein on his anger that he just doesn't recognize the signs that it is about to overwhelm him. He is unfamiliar with the experience. That, of course, is what gives Gunn his slight edge here. Having let his control slip before, he realizes that it is about to happen again and can at least warn Fred.
I am continually impressed by the nuance that the writers impart to these characters. And, of course, in us for being able to spot it. PyleansDontLeaveMe
A few stray thoughts as I desperately try to catch up-
BILLY-
AT last we get our Wesley set up episode. It's sad that Wesley refused to give himself forgiveness, when it is so freely given by Fred.
Gunn had an unfair advantage, knowing in advance that the blood was about to turn him. But that doesn't make what he did for Fred any less admirable and noble.
This was really the episode where we lost the potential of a Wes/Fred relationship coming any time soon, wasn't it. Wes backed away completely in guilt and shame, and how could Fred not be touched by Gunn's actions. The writing was on the wall this ep.
Cordy and Lilah- BEST. LILAH. SCENE. EVER. And the fact that it brings both a new understanding of Lilah to us AND to her just makes it more amazing.
Of course, it had to be the blood. The blood is the root of who and what we are, in the Joss Whedon world. Of course it had to be a taint of the blood.
tjaman
I'd argue that it was one of Cordy's shining moments as well. She didn't get to do full-on confrontation too often, but when she did ("Billy," "Rm W/a Vu," "You're Welcome," etc.) it's really quite good television.
PyleansDontLeaveMe
Yeah, why was that?
Cordy was always good at the direct head on's when no one else would - remember 'When she was bad?'
They should have used that more often.
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Post by tjaman on Jun 24, 2006 15:41:37 GMT -5
S3x07 - OFFSPRINGtjaman
I had to watch "Offspring" twice in order to even try this, there was so much good in it.
Let's get Holtz out of the way first.
Our reintroduction to Holtz was paired beautifully with a new window on Angelus and his relationship with Darla. We all remember Darla abandoning Angelus in a fiery French barn (at least, I think we remember that -- if that's still coming up let me know, but I thought we'd seen that bit of business already in S2). Now, in Rome, Darla swoops in to save him.
Clearly she's motivated, or she'd never have made the attempt at high noon.
The Darla-Angelus relationship gets a new wrinkle and we get more backstory on Holtz.
I wish he'd made some kind of escape or been pulled against his will into hiding, because the justification for not killing him -- especially since he was working his way through the five elements of torture against a perfectly evil vampire -- was more than a little lame. "He's like family."
He's like family? Hell, Darla, he could be family with a bite here and there.
It's not like murdering someone's entire family and then siring the last crazy person who remains is new to you at all.
Well, maybe in 1771 that particular M.O. hadn't occurred to them yet.
I thought the opening sequence with Holtz was actually a little indulgent -- especially with everything they had going on in this eppy. Until I got to the Sahjahn sequence at the end, where Holtz and Angel's paths are about to join up again, and realized that that was some nice exposition.
But our introduction to Sahjahn also leaves something to be desired. He's manipulating all sorts of things -- the bag of sand, the cigarette (CIGGIE! You SLUT!) -- which was tres cool, by the way -- and yet a huge part of what it means to be Sahjahn is that he's incorporeal. You can't honestly tell me that his lack of physical presence hadn't occured to Joss at the point of his introduction. The second he introduced Sahjahn, he'd already pretty much mapped out the entire Connor arc -- and I'd go so far as to suggest he already had the kind of confrontation he presented in "Origin" in mind.
Hell, some of it had to be in the back of his mind during Angel's S2 comshuck with Darla, which felt a little forced on a couple of levels.
Which brings us nicely to Cordy and her plastic plants.
"Anything real would die down here." Well said. The suggestion -- quite apart from the plants -- that no real relationship can exist between Angel and Cordy -- should've tipped us off for "Awakening" anyway. But the writing was always edging it there -- Cordy growing up, building an evermore complicated relationship with Angel, suffering loss together, suffering attacks together, falling out, reuniting, a whole new wardrobe, and just when she starts to feel she can trust him, in walks a very pregnant wrecking ball.
It's like Joss is saying, We're going to start this on a level playing field. You guys can try to make a go of it, but there are not going to be lies on this order of magnitude waiting to be discovered.
Not, mind you, that sex with Darla was anything new. Hell, Cordy had to know that in four centuries ...
It's not all about holding hands.
So the sting of realization was probably short-lived, and all the easier to put aside after her high-handed moral indignation put her alone in a room with a vampire.
I swear to G-d, Cordy is a solidly intelligent young woman most of the time, but I could not get my head around this. I knew she was trying to be supportive -- "You went male" was a great line -- but quite apart from being a physiological impossibility, a vampire mom is going to be unpredictable on a scale that would make Richter blanch.
So she makes this mistake, and she pays for it, and Angel once again has to face a screaming, angry woman attempting to commit suicide by vampire. Anyone else reminded of that scene in "Five by Five" where Faith is begging Angel to kill her? Meh, maybe it's just me.
There was only one other writing problem I noticed in this one, and that was the simple way Wes gave the writers an out. After that perfectly brilliant piece of research -- * picks up random book from counter * "Oh, here it is: It says 'I have no idea what's going on here." -- he reacts to the living, breathing, ensouled being growing inside the dead shell of a vampire by saying to Angel: "You have a soul. It makes sense -- as much as anything can make sense in this situation."
Not, mind you, that I expected anyone to be able to make any of that make sense -- some sired version of C. Everett Koop to swoop in and say "Ah yes, of course, zere is perfectly rrrational ekschplanation for all of ziss" -- but that felt, somehow, unworthy of this show.
Nice to see Lorne again, still apparently in the experimental phases of his makeup, and, of course, the Furies -- and it's truly sad that CYNTHIA! can't set foot in his establishment without they destroy things. He's just gotta stop letting them in.
Anyway, welcome to Season 3. Kick your shoes off -- relax, sample a white zin and make yourself at home.
Darla. CYNTHIA! Sahjahn. Holtz. Wes and his Naiazean (sp?) Prophecy.
Connor.
The adventure is officially under way. Aunt Arlene
Digging the Brilliant Insights as usual, but I had a small brain freeze while reading it. I misread plants as pants in "Which brings us nicely to Cordy and her plastic plants." This was unfortunately followed by the line "Anything real would die down here." tjaman
I so love the way your brain works, Auntie.
We bear fresh witness to the importance of accurate spelling. Mr Nasty
I read "plastic pants" too. How strange
Insane Troll Logic I never was keen on the "I don't want to kill you - just make you suffer" stuff that Holtz comes out with. OK, so it's a necessary plot device to keep the AngstyPants factor up, and leads into all the Connor stuff - but I've never been a fan of the BondVillanesque non-killing when they're in your power stupidity.
I would have preffered it if Holtz never quite cornered Angel/Angelus.
Having said that, I do like this eppy.
And the season as a whole.
Mr Nasty
Also, what were Holtz's glasses all about in this episode? Did they make specs like that in the 18th century?tjaman
Only for the super-est of badasses. ticktock44
Ah-ha tj just brought up something i was about to say. We all considered Holtz a Big Bad. But he was a vampire hunter, as noble as maybe even Van Helsing, who I think the new movie was an insult to but anyway. Holtz wants revenge for what happened to him, his entire family was brutally slaughtered by Angelus and Darla. It just seems fair to him that Angel's family should be brutally slaughtered. I hated Shahjan from the minute I saw him, I still do and I always will. I just blame everything that's happened on him and if you think about it, all of it can be related directly to him.
But back to Holtz, why doesn't he see Angel didn't have a soul when he murdered his family? (Or does he not know that yet?) Angel and Angelus are two different people, doesn't matter that they have the same bodies or the same memories. They are two different people. Ok so now that we have that established, let's focus on the Darla/Angel/Angelus relationship.
Darla and Angelus had a clear,not uncomplicated but clear relationship. He was her childe (Is that word used in the 'verse or is it Dracula/Anne Rice thing) and she was his sire. She taught him everything and they had wild, crazy sex. Now Angel and Darla is very much more confusing, they obviously still have feelings for each other. And I don't mean lovey-dovey feelings but some feelings because of their past. It isn't what Angel and Buffy had because Angel never loved Darla. Angelus in his own special way might have but Angel has always wholly belonged to Buffy. Even when Angel tried to back to Darla in the 1900's that wasn't love that was desperation and caring for his vampiric family. Now Darla comes back with a baby, who has a soul of all things! This is sure to complicate things even further. tjaman
Holtz cannot get his head around the fact that Angelus+soul=notAngelus. He's been so warped by his loss that he completely, freely and utterly acknowledges Angel's soul and he doesn't care.
It's one of the things that really grinds on me about his character, but really, Angel has had 200 ensouled years (including his vacation in hell) to wrestle with what he did to Holtz and try to atone by fighting evil.
All of Holtz' pain, anguish and loss, of course, from Holtz's persepctive, happened in quite recent memory. He was plucked out of the timeline breathing fiery vengeance against Angelus, and that is how he reemerges.
While I've never liked Holtz -- or Justine, comes to that -- he certainly makes for interesting storytelling. He's dark, charismatic, works well with Wesley, and keeps things hopping on our little boxes.
And I've gotta disagree with tt44, tho -- I heart the stuffin' out of Sahjahn. He's just fun. A big bad with a well-developed sense of irony. But that isn't ultimately a disagreement -- merely a different reaction. ticktock44
Hee hee, yeah tj best not to disagree with me, see what I did to that poor Lady Lavina... Don't worry folks, I only kid. But on my behalf I just loved Angel as a father and Sahjahn helped to ruin it, so grr to him. But the character is quite amusing I must admit.
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Post by tjaman on Jun 24, 2006 18:39:30 GMT -5
S3x08 - QUICKENINGtjaman
An intriguing installment. We discover that the bun in Darla's oven is not necessarily evil, that it is indeed human, that she's ready to drop any second, and there's another one of those "Let us never speak of this again" in-house staff assessments at W&H.
There was a lot of W&H in this eppy. We had Gavin's sneak-peekery, Lilah's scheming, Linwood's ass-covering, and mostly we had the guy from the mailroom:
Lilah: I don't date guys from the mailroom. Guy from the Mailroom: Oh, neither do I.
And we also had lots of running around by CYNTHIA! And a truly Joss moment which I have misremembered somewhat:
Darla: "What, no one wants to sit back here with me? I promise I won't kick anyone out ... while we're moving." Fred: "It's not that we don't trust you ... well, we don't ... but the fact of the matter is your water just broke all over the backseat."
These moments are moments to cherish. And the timing was perfect, too. We have all four of them piled into the front seat with Darla in the back, we're given lots of time to ask ourselves why they're all doing that -- I mean, really, if there's a vampire in the car I guess I'd rather have it next to me than behind me, and then we get that perfectly distanced "Oh yeah" moment. Quite stylish.
There were a few tiny little picky detail problems in this eppy, so I'll just run through them and get them out of the way:
Problems: What bugging equipment was Gavin set up with? Lily Tomlin's leftover switchboard from "Laugh In"? Also, I do not believe for a second that Holtz with his sword fended off a roomful of W&H-trained operatives. I guess it's somewhat believable, tho. The mystical telekinetic hack-and-slasher Lilah keeps on her speed dial was the first to go down in the hospital.
Loved the scene with the psychics, of course.
More problems: Now, Darla's been a vampire longer than anyone, just about, and Angel for a pretty long time, too. Is there some reason neither of them in their centuries walking the earth have ever heard of this "Blessed Child" prophecy, while a dozen or so of the stealthiest mo-fo vampires have?
Wes has already stated that he -- and, presumably, the Watchers Council -- has no information on a vampire giving birth. Yet he gets agitated about getting back to the hotel to get his books. Heck, never mind the books. You had a bunch of postulates standing around, and you KILLED ALL OF THEM!
Idiots.
That and there was no reason for Fred to deliver that "They don't know I can't hurt the baby" line. Just none.
I did like her taking the initiative, however. That's four times she's done that -- "Through the Looking Gl@ss," "That Old Gang of Mine," "Fredless" and now "Quickening." I really like when she does that.
Finally: With no Angel there, what's keeping Darla from eating everyone?
Hmm, lots of problems. Must've been a lot of drinking going on in the writers' room that week.
The Holtz flashbacks were nice, however. And the whole Sahjahn thing: "I'm not a man ... but I'm clearly masculine. You get that, right?" and "I've had some work done ... mostly around the eyes." Very cool. Sahjahn is just always so cool.
We close on a very cold note: Holtz finally confronting Angel, giving a nice full-circle ending on this eppy, which began with him searching for Angel.
* sigh * Artistically, it all worked. Logically, however, very little of it did.
Sad, really.
I am so ready for some fun debate on this eppy. GO! Angelu§fan Ok I got one debate: Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That and there was no reason for Fred to deliver that "They don't know I can't hurt the baby" line. Just none. Ok while I agree that she shouldn't have said it in a room full of vamps, it need to be said. 1. Just in-case you didn't catch before that it couldn't be harmed 2. It was a little funny, not a lot, but it does get a small chuckle when Darla comes back with "They do now" and then the fight breaks out. 3. I feel, note that this is just my opinion, that Fred was saying it more to herself and to Darla and just trying to make Darla feel safe. I mean when a group of Cult Vamps tell you that they're going to eat your eyeballs and wear you guts, a little comfort is need. But other than that I agree with what you said full heartedly. Ok on to my insights Love the hospital gag: Angel: How you feeling? Darla: I haven't had blood in almost a day, and your devil's spawn is trying to rip it's way outta my body. How do you think I'm doing? This is just good humor place at the right time and so needed. I think it's just a cute little piece they put in. OK next: Angel: Darla, you might wanna join the fight. Darla: Sorry, darling. I'm gonna have to be Switzerland and sit this one out. (To vampires) Now, you did say you were just gonna kill the humans, right? Vampire: Yes, just the humans. Then we will nourish you, slice you open, wear your entrails as a belt and consume your eyeballs before we worship the miracle child. Darla jumps off the table and goes to stand beside Angel. Darla: Okay. I'm in. OK on this, I just love it. Darla does the one right thing here and agrees to stay out of it, but when her live is in danger she fights, even though she's pregnant. The rest of it was also cute and a much needed humor before the fight scene. Tarfal: Or to speak to or worship Master Tarfal, Underlord of Pain, press 3. Ok I am SO putting this on my answering machine. I really would love to see what type of messages I would get. More with the much needed humor. The parts with Sahjhan and Holtz was every interesting. We learn how Holtz met Sahjhan and why he did what he did. There are a few scene that where funny between them but mostly I think it sets us up for whats to come{which I have no clue about;)} But it's nice to see finally what happen. Other than that it was a good episode and filled in a lot of info. Can't wait to see how it turns out. tjaman
A'fan, agitating some more said: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Just in-case you didn't catch before that it couldn't be harmed
... the first eight or nine times in this very episode that Darla hammered home the fact that she'd tried to get rid of it several times and couldn't. PyleansDontLeaveMe
OK- So, how far behind am I now? To my notes! Charisma69
d**n, I was all excited 'cause I saw Py's name on the last post.
And it was just a post asking how far behind he was. I'm all despondent now.
No Brilliant Insights for me. It occurs to me how often these reviews are a story played out of Cordy's pleasure denied -- and my general disappointment and neediness for approval. tjaman
* notes that once again his commentary stands shivering cold and alone, deemed generally unworthy of comment *
* sigh * I'll get something served up soon enough on "Lullaby"
Y'know. Whenever.
* mostly kidding * PyleansDontLeaveMe I love your commentary, TJ. I think it's brilliant. tjaman
Thank you, Py.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Oct 20, 2010 17:09:55 GMT -5
I'm watching Shroud of Rahmon while working out later tonight-
Anyone up for some discussion?
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Post by tjaman on Oct 20, 2010 22:42:38 GMT -5
Analyzing some of my older posts, passive-aggressive is active-unattractive.
I'd love to bitca about the Shroud of Ramon but that would mean looking at Cordy's bad government hair again.
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Post by GreatMuppetyNick on Oct 21, 2010 0:49:29 GMT -5
I'm watching Shroud of Rahmon while working out later tonight- Anyone up for some discussion?
Y'Know, that episode always sounds to me like it's about the clothing of a sexually confused mexican poolboy.
....
Annnnnd , that's all I have to add.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Oct 21, 2010 9:23:43 GMT -5
It isn't?
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Post by tjaman on Oct 21, 2010 22:39:37 GMT -5
They did unearth it in Mexico. Somewhere on the Yucatan Peninsula if memory serves.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Oct 22, 2010 14:15:24 GMT -5
It's odd. I always think of Shroud of Rahmon as being the light and wacky episode between Darla and the Trial.
But it's not remotely light and only briefly wacky.
Mostly its just dark dark dark and heavy. Then Cordelia gets stoned. Then back to dark and heavy. I mean, the last shot alone of Angel thinking about drinking Kate - That's some heavy stuff
What struck my most this time around (other than that it was leg workout day and I HATE leg workout day, so I was mostly thinking - Goddamn fricken leg workout day!) was how strange it is that people seem confused about what the shroud does exactly. I've read several reviews that acused the episode of being inconsistent about how the shrouds powers worked.
The shroud takes your obsessions and magnifies them. That's what it does in all cases.
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Post by tjaman on Oct 22, 2010 14:25:35 GMT -5
And that's why there's a statue of you somewhere.
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Post by Rebelman on Dec 2, 2010 21:02:41 GMT -5
How long has it been since yall watched this series ?? I watched it essentially in the Spring over the full thing. I still think its better than Buffy to me for some reason I STILL think Angel Season 4 is the weakest, Dear God that confusing mombo.
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Post by Charisma69 on Dec 2, 2010 21:14:50 GMT -5
I finally got Brad to watch it last year, but he watched most of it without me.
So I haven't seen most of the eps since we did the 'thon.
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