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Post by Disgruntled Gremlin on Jul 27, 2004 18:20:09 GMT -5
I'd love to believe in religion, and that's quite a touching story, Bango. I am exploring my spiritual side at the moment, and am beginning to develop my own interpretation of Wicca to live by. Hey, there are worse things to worship than the earth. However, as for the Bible, it's a great read. However, what I cannot stand is the way many people use it to impose their beliefs upon others. Think homosexuality, people. Honestly, would there even BE a ssm debate if no one took the word for word interpretations of the Bible seriously? It disgusts me that people use religion- something designed to steer people on the right path in life- to justify their prejudices. Is Mattathias possessed by a demon? Will Py burn in hell for all eternity? Does Daelus fear holy water? Shouldn't I smell of Brimstone by now? Christianity is a mere shadow of what it once was because of people who think that way. I think religion is a wonderful thing- people can be happy, and it gives people a moral code to live by. But in this day and age, for society it's doing as much bad as good. As for the Bible itself, it's been passed down after so many years, and translated into so many languages. I can believe there was a dude named Jesus Christ. But considering location, I HIGHLY doubt he was white and spoke English. As for 'God,' who knows? It's fun to think about. Instead of concentrating on miracles that we can imagine, I am focusing on the concrete miracles- the miracles of life. Every stubby squid and emerald macaw and squirrel monkey and great blue heron is something amazing in itself. Every animal, plant, protist, fungus and bacterium is something unique, something special, and something worth living for, so I don't need a holy book and an omnipotent being to be content with my life. Because life itself it the biggest miracle out there, and I think it's something worth appreciating
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MaxC
Big Bad
ooh yeah
Posts: 198
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Post by MaxC on Jul 28, 2004 1:24:01 GMT -5
You can never get away from a religious debate.
Someone once said that they dont belive in coincedences, only miracles. Also having faith always help you to get through the hard times because it gives you are reason to believe it will be alright.
Bango+: I hear you, as I hear many similar stories. But unfortunately I also hear the less unfortunate ones too even though they believe. Some suffer and some don't, but I guess it's all the experience of life to suffer too.
History: The problem with religion is that it is constantly changing. Christianity of today is not the same as it was before (ie some people believe it isnt necessary to go to Church). The problem also stems from its origin, usually from other religion. One form of Christianity is the Chrurch of England - based on the Catholic created by Henry VIII, not exactly what some would want to have their belief base on. In this age of science and information, newer generation find it harder to believe.
Joss: As all horro sci-fi has it, you must have some cultural religion to hook people into the believability of the series.
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Post by AlyWay on Jul 28, 2004 6:16:57 GMT -5
Here is the way I see it. I treat people the way I want to be treated. After I die I want people to be happy they knew me and if that happens I will be in Heaven.
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Post by Dr. Purple Goddess on Jul 28, 2004 10:58:10 GMT -5
Mkay here we go... Okay, just like to say that there ARE inconsistencies in the Bible, and while I'm not prepared to specify regarding that point, I believe it to be true. However, I don't worry too much about them as I regard the Bible much the way I do Aesop's fables or 1001 Arabian Nights. They are important lessons that humanity has managed to learn through the course of life. I understand why some feel the need to place a higher power in connection with these insights because if we were to figure all this out on our own, how can we justify being stupid enough not to have learned from these revelations? The fact is, we are quick to learn, and slow to understand. I suppose if we were all born with the experience of those before us, we would undoubtedly find it unecessary to recount these experiences in things like books and stories. And, much like any passing of information, some of it will be narrowed by the limited experience of those who are writing it. Despite "devine" intervention it's still up for interpretation. I think the Bible, like any other collection of tales and parables, are simply to be interpreted by the individual. You can say all day long that it was written with devine intervention but the political, social, and idealistic values of the time have certainly come in to play. This is not necessarily bad or good. But it does affect the context to which it might be taken. Okay, as for me, the Bible is a very durable piece of fiction that like most good yarns, give us drama, suspence and reality, all mixed together for that perfect blend of mystery that keeps people guessing and questioning things. And for that, I will always appreciate such things. For as long as you question, your mind can never dim. And thus endeth the lesson. Sorry for the windiness
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Post by Bango on Jul 28, 2004 14:11:59 GMT -5
The Bible is NOT a piece of fiction, and it does not have inconsistences like three people have said. There are people who edit the Bible, take stuff out and add a few things, and those are the Bibles such as the study Bibles and such. Money making schemes have happened like this, but the real Bible, the true one, the original autograph's,(as that's what the original Bible was called), show no inconsistences with anything, and the King James Version is exactly like the original texts from the Bible. Fiction it's not. Places in the Bible were once actual cities before they were rebuilt over. History, and science even backs up the Bible. MaxC, where have you heard that some believe it isn't a necessary to go to church? Churches around here don't believe that. I know people who think that, but that's their fleshy self believing if they are right with God, they don't have to go to church, but that's not what the Bible says. It says that they must go, to fellowship with him, and grow stronger. That's the problem with many today, they think that just because they are Christian, they are automatically right with God, and therefore can do anything, but that isn't true, they're still sinners and therefore they can eventually fall out of fellowship with God. Also, MaxC, why even bring Henry the VIII into this? He became head over the religion in England, just to make himself not fall into wrong doing, just because he wanted another wife. Plus, back in the early days, the church didn't even teach the true Chrisitanity. Since many people were illiterate, and never owned a Bible, (since it was against the laws back then in Europe), and didn't speak Latin,(since that's the language the Bible was written in in those days), many priests lied about what was really in the Bible and therefore taught what they wanted to teach for their own pleasure. All over Europe that was happening until Martin Luther got ahold of the Bible, and read what was in it, and told everyone through his thesis' about what was truely going on. With the help of Martin Luther and many like him, the true word of the Bible had began to go out to people. Now, history had started repeating itself with preachers sometimes adding on what is truely not in the Bible, with many people, like some of you who doubt the Bible and try and find reasons to condemn it, and people who print texts that are rewritten to differ than what the Bible is truely written as. Me, I'm sticking to my King James Version because that's as close to the original Bible, that I'm going to get to. But, Dr.F, the Bible isn't a fable. It's not like Aesop's Fable or the other names you mentioned. The reason? The Bible took many years to be completed, through different writers who believed in God, and wrote what the Holy Spirit told them to write. It's not fiction. History, and Science backs it up. Historical citings and ancient findings were once said to be from places that is from the Bible. And for that, I have to disagree!
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Post by Dr. Purple Goddess on Jul 28, 2004 16:51:57 GMT -5
I understand why you say that the Bible is not fiction. It does have historical fact. It does depict actual events, cities and so forth. I may even wish to retract my statement that the Bible is fiction. HOWEVER, in order for me to do that I would have to believe that the stories told in the Bible actually happened in the way in which they were written. Since I do not, (and of course, I'm speaking only of my own opinions) than I cannot reasonably believe that the Bible is a complete work of Non-Fiction.
Scientists have indeed proven some things in the Bible. Historians have even concurred with many of the events that happened. But, there is plenty of things that were written that were not even 3rd or 4th person accounts of what actually happened. I'm not saying that this is necessary for it to be important, nor am I saying that the Bible has less meaning because of it. I was merely comparing it to Aesop's fables and 1001 Arabian Nights in that it does not matter if it ACTUALLY happened the way it was depicted. The important things are the lessons we gleem from these books.
I just don't see what all the fuss is about. The Bible was put together by the "higher ups" in the major churches of the time. The books that were put in it, were put there by the highest in the religious "order".
There were many many books that were not included. There were many things that were left out by people who were not even considered true deciples of Christ. (and by that I just mean of the 12 that Jesus had).
I may be wrong but only the writers of these books were supposed to have Devine Inspiration not the ones who decided what should go in it. Those people who decided (the highest in the churches) what should be cannonized did choose the most popular accounts of events... Anything that blatantly went against anything already decided upon was left out.
The part where Caine married his younger sister and had many children was left out because incest is wrong.
And so, anything where details have been conveniently left out or changed for the sensibilities of the majority can only be fiction in my opinion.
I'm not saying however that all that was written should have been included... But it does beg the question why nit pick over details when doing so causes so many to miss the point of what having such a document is really about.... and that is to learn from the mistakes and triumphs of our past.
I suppose the Bible was written to try and set us straight about God etc. However, when so many people argue over it and alienate themselves from each other because of it, than it completely defeats the purpose in my opinion. And so, I go on to say that it's not religion that is important but rather spirituality. The Bible is merely a tool (that I personally do not use) to be a guide to something larger than the individual.
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Post by Bango on Jul 28, 2004 18:34:56 GMT -5
I just don't see what all the fuss is about. The Bible was put together by the "higher ups" in the major churches of the time. The books that were put in it, were put there by the highest in the religious "order". There were many many books that were not included. There were many things that were left out by people who were not even considered true deciples of Christ. (and by that I just mean of the 12 that Jesus had). I may be wrong but only the writers of these books were supposed to have Devine Inspiration not the ones who decided what should go in it. Those people who decided (the highest in the churches) what should be cannonized did choose the most popular accounts of events... Anything that blatantly went against anything already decided upon was left out. The part where Caine married his younger sister and had many children was left out because incest is wrong. And so, anything where details have been conveniently left out or changed for the sensibilities of the majority can only be fiction in my opinion. I'm not saying however that all that was written should have been included... But it does beg the question why nit pick over details when doing so causes so many to miss the point of what having such a document is really about.... and that is to learn from the mistakes and triumphs of our past. In the 4th Century the church fathers only did that to the Greek manuscripts,(copies of the original autographs), and they selected the books and episitles that were parts of the preserved Word of God and placed them in the canon of holy scripture. The ones not selected were considered false facts...and I think it does mention Caine's marriage in the Bible....mentions Noah being drunk and sleeping with his son's wife, why not mention Caine's twisted fashion?...so I think your comment is off-base.
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Post by tjaman on Jul 28, 2004 19:00:27 GMT -5
We all sin, Bango. Our limited human nature separates us from God. But the good news is that reconciliation, justification and grace is always available to every single one of us.
For Christians, that reconciliation comes through faith, forgiveness and communion. For Jews it is through closer, ever more perfect study of Scripture and right living. For Hindus and Buddhists it is dharma (right living) and devotion. For Muslims, it is submission to the will of God through daily prayer, fasting, service, alms and pilgrimage. For Wiccans, it is spiritual development and living in harmony with the world. For many others, it is being the best person they know how to be.
There is no culture on Earth to which God has remained unrevealed. People may embrace that revelation or reject it. God has given us free will. I'm not prepared to say that was a mistake, but it certainly opens the door for people to make limited, imperfect and sometimes gravely damaging choices.
The common theme of the world's enduring wisdom traditions is to love God, love others and reach out to your fellow beings.
How sad we cannot find wisdom in love, God's truth in lives that seem otherwise foreign to us. How sad that God's love for all of God's children seems, by some teachings, to be conditional, when the compelling joy of our existence is that God knows all of our faults, our sin and our limitations and yet still does love and at all times reaches out to us.
The layers of theology with which Christianity, for example, has embroidered that central truth sometimes serves to completely obscure it. There are Christian traditions that put so many artificial barriers between God and God's creation when in reality, we are in constant, direct communication.
Put another way, God loves the biblical scholar with the most elaborately detailed and overconstructed theology in the same measure as God loves the child whose sole contact with the nature of God is the overwhleming joy she takes in the beauty of God's creation.
If more of the faithful -- in any following -- understood and believed in God's surpassing and steadfast love for all of God's creation, it would have saved us a lot of history in terms of wars, poverty, destruction and desolation.
More to the point, if people believed it even now, there's a lot of rebuilding that could get underway.
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MaxC
Big Bad
ooh yeah
Posts: 198
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Post by MaxC on Jul 29, 2004 3:23:07 GMT -5
Hey Bango, I'm not sure what we are arguing here but here are the replies to your question. MaxC, where have you heard that some believe it isn't a necessary to go to church? Churches around here don't believe that. I know people who think that, but that's their fleshy self believing if they are right with God, they don't have to go to church, but that's not what the Bible says. My roomate here in the UK is a Christian (or so she says). She's been since she was little, and during our University period, she joined a Christian group called the fellowship. They believe it isnt necessary to go to Church since they believe God is always with them including in their hearts. It'll be good if you could tell me where in the bible that it is necessary to go to Church so I can pass on the information. why even bring Henry the VIII into this? He became head over the religion in England, just to make himself not fall into wrong doing, just because he wanted another wife. Plus, back in the early days, the church didn't even teach the true Chrisitanity... ...priests lied about what was really in the Bible and therefore taught what they wanted to teach for their own pleasure. I wanted to mentioned the deversity and numerous divisions of Christianity out there. Also, the history that are involved that makes it hard to have faith in. The Church of England is one of theme as it is created by Henry VIII for the reasons you mentioned - yet it is a proper Christian religion with many followings. It seems you are telling me there are a lot of fake Christian out there including fake churches. All over Europe that was happening until Martin Luther got ahold of the Bible, and read what was in it, and told everyone through his thesis' about what was truely going on. With the help of Martin Luther and many like him, the true word of the Bible had began to go out to people. Fair enough. You have your reasons for having faith in that version of the bible much for the same reasons as those who have faith in the Chrurch of England. I wouldnt get too work up about this since I will let it drop if it does bother you - does it really matter what other people think?
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Post by Disgruntled Gremlin on Jul 29, 2004 9:35:26 GMT -5
One great thing about religion is that there is no 'wrong' interpretation. You can choose to believe that God loves you and will forgive you for your faults. You can choose to believe that if you step out of line, he will smite you with salt pillars and brimstone. Hey, you can choose to believe there is no God at all. There is no 'wrong' or 'fake' variation of religion, it's just humanity. We can't all believe the same things.
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Post by AlyWay on Jul 29, 2004 10:40:35 GMT -5
how boring would that be
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Post by tjaman on Jul 30, 2004 11:39:07 GMT -5
Sadly, on some level, that's also what's wrong with it. A group of people get inspired or something and decide that theirs is the One True Way to witness their One True Faith and then go around beating everyone else up. There are militant wings of most major world faiths and it's ugly.
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Post by IllyriaWorshipper on Jul 30, 2004 16:09:23 GMT -5
wow, this place is just like my thread back at tv tome, you the one about the world ending.
we're all gonna die! we're all gonna die! we're all gonna die! we're all gonna die! we're all gonna die!
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Post by ReadyToBake on Jul 31, 2004 9:24:36 GMT -5
I have a problem with any religion that elevates one group of people over others. If a religion considers women, children, minorities, and homosexuals to be less deserving of the same liberties and rights as everyone else then that isn't religion it's bigotry. And I know that a lot of religions treat people really shabby. This is the no.1 reason I am an Atheist. I'm a good person, I don't break the law, I don't hurt others, I have morals and ethics, I just don't think that I have to follow a set of rules made up by bigots in order to be considered a moral human being.
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Post by TealBox on Aug 2, 2004 10:50:27 GMT -5
I haven't been to church since September, and prior to that there was a 7 year gap. I am completely willing to believe that I may go to Hell when I die, but I've never believed it is because I don't go to church. I spent many years hating people, then a spent a couple more trying to save them and show them the right way. You learn a lot that way, the main thing is that the miracles every notices aren't divine acts, they are deus ex machina. Those moments are the sloppy ones where it wasn't written together smoothly. The true miracles are the ones that most people don't notice are the miracles.
So why is that important? Because that's where my church is, in the miracles that I don't have to see to believe. Church is just a place to remind you that it all works for a reason. Church proof just causes more questions for me, so I don't go and a feel a lot better about other people and about the decisions I make. Everything works for a reason, and I don't need to have that reason try to be explained. No human words can express the weight of the explanation, and when they try to they lose the point. You can all go to church and get your Holy jollies if you want, but I can't get my answer there because they just try downsize and simplify something that is already too simple.
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