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Post by TealBox on Jul 22, 2004 19:58:19 GMT -5
Okay, I was original going to call you something like "Your Religion Sucks" or "Bango+ is Owned" simply because this is the Offend- O- Rama, but then I remembered the comentary for 'The Body' where Joss refers to God as "The Sky Bully." My basic plan here is to have a dynamic discussion about each others' believes and the symbolism of the Buffyverse and then have that spiral furiously out of control until we all end up surrounded by literal columns of our metaphorical blood.
So, to start us off, Joss admits to be an atheist yet has repeatedly used Christians symbols to represent good, until of course the last 20 seconds it seems season 7 when he threw in Caleb and had him do some evil stuff in a priest's uniform. I believe the only fitting thing to do with such information is over analyze it. So, when Joss pulled together Mutant Enemy and was working on the series back in 1996 he had to establish some vampire ground rules. Thus he pretty much just went through all the vampire movies made in the last 10 years and took out the cool parts and combined them together. Now because everything is a metaphor for something else Joss needed a symbol of good that would ward off evil. A stabby stick, garlic, and silver all pretty much sucked so he decided upon the almighty cross. Yet even here Joss's believes in the cross show through. Does the cross kill all evil and help all good? No. It gives a select group of wrong-doers a first degree burn. It isn't something to save good guys, it is just something for bad guys to fear so that they can be herded into dark little corners. Then enter Caleb, a bad guy who doesn't fear the cross and isn't in the super selective group that is hurt by it. Caleb walks around preaching but not as if God is something to love, but rather as if God is something to not fear. Again showing Joss's belief that Christianity is just there to bully bad guys. Now you're all saying "Yeah, but in the end Caleb gets cut into pieces," but that's not the end. In the end Caleb comes back as part of the First Evil and says some more annoying stuff.
So what have we learned kiddies? 1) Joss doesn't believe in God 2) Joss believes religion is just there to scare us into doing good 3) Joss believes all people have evil in them, and when we die and find out there is no sky bully part of us will revert to primative evil (the First)
And you thought you were just watching a TV show.
Note: I do not carry the same views as Joss Whedon. All points made in this post are to be applied to him and not me. I do believe in a "sky bully" of some sort and feel no reason not to.
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Post by IllyriaWorshipper on Jul 22, 2004 21:47:02 GMT -5
im an athiest
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Post by Mr Nasty on Jul 22, 2004 21:50:28 GMT -5
Meh, I've got quite few things I'd like to say about this but I can't really articulate them at the moment. I keep typing things then deleting them again.
Well, I'm an agnostic and I believe there are reasons to not believe in a "sky bully" of some kind.
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Post by IllyriaWorshipper on Jul 22, 2004 22:28:56 GMT -5
an athiest means someone with no religeon and doesnt belive in god . i am religeonless.
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Post by Mr Nasty on Jul 23, 2004 1:45:34 GMT -5
Aren't you an Illyrian?
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Post by IllyriaWorshipper on Jul 23, 2004 2:23:24 GMT -5
the illyrians are all dead or they might have become albanians.
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Post by Dr. Purple Goddess on Jul 23, 2004 16:06:39 GMT -5
[glow=purple,2,300]I can understand the commentary on Joss Whedon's beliefs... However, much like Mr. Nasty I have had to retype several times....
Just so much to say and I don't want to come off all lengthy and boring about my take on Joss' agnosism and how it applies to his shows.[/glow]
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Post by Bango on Jul 23, 2004 19:21:07 GMT -5
Whatever the other members say, I believe in the "sky Bully", and I resent Joss' remarks he made in "The Body" Commentary.
Ever since I was little I've believed in God. I just can, because so much as happened to me, and around me to not believe in him. And his angels.
When I was 5 years old I went into the hospital. The doctors did everything to get the sickness I had, out of me. What I had, sometimes causes people to die, or either become brain dead. God healed me and I went home a few days afterwards.
My sister, who's just like another friend to me, died when she was 6 years old. I was about 5 or 6 then. Anyway, she died. We were all going to take my great grand mother to the skin docter for her skin cancers, and my sister had a ...(oh I can't spell it)...you know when you go into convultions,(?), well she had those pretty bad growing up, well this one killed her right in her car-seat. My mom was screaming and crying, so the same with my great-gran. And a man came up and he stopped all the traffice, gave my sister CPR while the ambulance were coming, and she came back to us. He followed my mom and sister behind the ambulance all the way to the hospital, and then he disappeared and we've never heard anything from him since...we all consider him an angel. Plus there was a time I was real sick and scared one night, and a hand graced my forehead and I suddenly was better.
Then my great-grandmother, who I care for so much, she wasn't set to live, and yet her belief in God gave her another chance to live, and she was set to die 30 years ago.
Plus, just a few years ago she was dying with breast cancer. She was in the 3rd stages of it, the deadly stages, and she was 79 at the time,( 82 this Sunday). Well the docters didn't give her a good chance, because it had grown so much, and he was afraid to put her in surgery. They did it anyway. All during her surgery everyone prayed to let her survive. At around 7:30 that night she came out of surgery. They had to take half her side off, but she survived. Our belief gave her more time, and it was a good thing too because she's gotten to see our oldest cousins son be born and that's brought years back to her, and has did wonders for her, that baby. The story's better told from my great-gran's own mouth since from it she has inspired many people, even non-believers.
Plus there were times when we were kids, we had no food hardly. Mysteriously people we never knew started helping us out from different churches because "something/someone" told them we needed help.
Then there was my uncle. He doesn't have faith, and he says he believes in a higher being, but he...it's complicated...anyway lets just say that he died on the surgery table. My parents went up North to be with him, we all did. Spent weeks in a bloody hotel room while they were at the hospital. Anyway, my uncle was/is a bad man, especially then. When he went into surgery, he died, he even remembers it, he began to sink down, and it was a horrible feeling he began to take on. Back in the waiting room we kids and the rest was all in there, and the grown ones were praying, especially my dad,(he was a preacher), and my uncle was brought back, the docters said they could never help my uncle, but her was "somehow" brought back...that's all I'll say about him, due to the fact talking about him angers me for things he's recently done to my family.
There are other times, but I either vividly remember them, or it pains me thinking of it now,(due to recently losing some persons), or I either can explain it in words.
But for those reasons I just can't not believe what I believe in. I just can't deny them, and experiencing those things have given me more faith in the big "sky bully", and that's why I get angry with Joss Whedon when he criticizes my belief due to him being an atheist. I respect the man for the stuff he's done, but Joss Whedon the person, I just don't agree with him.
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Post by TealBox on Jul 23, 2004 22:51:46 GMT -5
Whatever the other members say, I believe in the "sky Bully", and I resent Joss' remarks he made in "The Body" Commentary. Ever since I was little I've believed in God. I just can, because so much as happened to me, and around me to not believe in him. And his angels. When I was 5 years old I went into the hospital. The doctors did everything to get the sickness I had, out of me. What I had, sometimes causes people to die, or either become brain dead. God healed me and I went home a few days afterwards. My sister, who's just like another friend to me, died when she was 6 years old. I was about 5 or 6 then. Anyway, she died. We were all going to take my great grand mother to the skin docter for her skin cancers, and my sister had a ...(oh I can't spell it)...you know when you go into convultions,(?), well she had those pretty bad growing up, well this one killed her right in her car-seat. My mom was screaming and crying, so the same with my great-gran. And a man came up and he stopped all the traffice, gave my sister CPR while the ambulance were coming, and she came back to us. He followed my mom and sister behind the ambulance all the way to the hospital, and then he disappeared and we've never heard anything from him since...we all consider him an angel. Plus there was a time I was real sick and scared one night, and a hand graced my forehead and I suddenly was better. Then my great-grandmother, who I care for so much, she wasn't set to live, and yet her belief in God gave her another chance to live, and she was set to die 30 years ago. Plus, just a few years ago she was dying with breast cancer. She was in the 3rd stages of it, the deadly stages, and she was 79 at the time,( 82 this Sunday). Well the docters didn't give her a good chance, because it had grown so much, and he was afraid to put her in surgery. They did it anyway. All during her surgery everyone prayed to let her survive. At around 7:30 that night she came out of surgery. They had to take half her side off, but she survived. Our belief gave her more time, and it was a good thing too because she's gotten to see our oldest cousins son be born and that's brought years back to her, and has did wonders for her, that baby. The story's better told from my great-gran's own mouth since from it she has inspired many people, even non-believers. Plus there were times when we were kids, we had no food hardly. Mysteriously people we never knew started helping us out from different churches because "something/someone" told them we needed help. Then there was my uncle. He doesn't have faith, and he says he believes in a higher being, but he...it's complicated...anyway lets just say that he died on the surgery table. My parents went up North to be with him, we all did. Spent weeks in a bloody hotel room while they were at the hospital. Anyway, my uncle was/is a bad man, especially then. When he went into surgery, he died, he even remembers it, he began to sink down, and it was a horrible feeling he began to take on. Back in the waiting room we kids and the rest was all in there, and the grown ones were praying, especially my dad,(he was a preacher), and my uncle was brought back, the docters said they could never help my uncle, but her was "somehow" brought back...that's all I'll say about him, due to the fact talking about him angers me for things he's recently done to my family. There are other times, but I either vividly remember them, or it pains me thinking of it now,(due to recently losing some persons), or I either can explain it in words. But for those reasons I just can't not believe what I believe in. I just can't deny them, and experiencing those things have given me more faith in the big "sky bully", and that's why I get angry with Joss Whedon when he criticizes my belief due to him being an atheist. I respect the man for the stuff he's done, but Joss Whedon the person, I just don't agree with him. You see, when you put it like that you don't sound like a raving lunatic. I also believe there is are higher beings and that they watch over us. I believe that the universe was created in a way behind the comprehension of humans and I believe that every tiny thing has a purpose. The part where I disagree with you is the Bible, I just don't take it as literally. I don't believe God wrote the book (if he did then he pretty much wasted that time he spent creating consciences for us) and therefore I don't believe it is the full truth. It like a Michael Moore film, he takes actual footage but he puts it so out of context that you don't know if what he says happened is actually what happened. If you thoroughly examine the book I know there are a couple places where it contradicts itself. The answer is simple, we aren't meant to have all the answers. Humans are not meant to know, they are meant to find out, it's kind of like our deal. The other animals are like "Hey what's up with them humans?" "Oh, they find out stuff," "Oh."
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Post by Bango on Jul 24, 2004 16:44:45 GMT -5
What places in the Bible do they contradict each other? Because if it's the one certain place,(that many complain about), then I can safely say it doesn't contradict itself. So, what place is this contradiction?
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Post by TealBox on Jul 24, 2004 17:24:21 GMT -5
What places in the Bible do they contradict each other? Because if it's the one certain place,(that many complain about), then I can safely say it doesn't contradict itself. So, what place is this contradiction? Well my science teacher (who is a religous man who goes to church every week) would always talk about how the amount of time it took to create the world kept differing (one time it is 7 days, another it is 3 days). Of course when the world was created there was no determined time scale, so a week in God's time could easily be 10 billion years in human, and then of course you have to factor in God is theoretically a 27th dimensional being, so there is a very good chance he would percieve the dimension of time much differently than us. Anyways, I'm sure there is no way a book that big and that translated has no contradictions.
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Post by Bango on Jul 25, 2004 18:34:58 GMT -5
A teacher of mine once told his Biblical class to never assume what another man tells you of the Bible, that to get the answers yourself, you have to research for yourself.
...I've had three highly college trained academy science/biology teachers who were Christians, and they'd stand their ground against your teacher's theory. 7 days was how long it took...or so the Holy Spirit said when it told the writers what to put in the Bible...and if I had to believe the Holy Spirit, or your teacher, I'd go with God's side and believe the Holy Spirit.
So...how's the weather? ;D
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Post by Mr Nasty on Jul 25, 2004 23:11:05 GMT -5
Why does God reward the weak? People who need to believe in God because they're too scared to live their own lives get to go to Heaven, apparently while those of us that can actually think for ourselves are banished to the fiery depths of Hell for all eternity. Does that seem right to you? As far as the Buffyverse was concerned, Angel felt that he was going to Hell because he had done lots of terrible things as Angelus. He was to be punished for doing something morally wrong, nothing to do with his personal beliefs. Buffy, on the other hand, went to Heaven when she died. Was this a coincidence? Did she go to a Heavenly dimension because of who she was or did she just end up there by chance? She said in "The Freshman" that she hadn't yet taken Jesus Christ as her personal saviour and in "CWDP" she told Holden that there was "nothing solid" on the existence of God so it would seem that she isn't a Christian. Anyway, discuss that. It's more interesting than inconsistencies in the Bible.
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Post by angelusfan3 on Jul 25, 2004 23:33:47 GMT -5
buffy went to a heavenly dimension cause she sacrifice herself to save the world and according to myths if one sacrifices ones self to save another it an instant ticket into heaven
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Post by Bango on Jul 26, 2004 9:12:36 GMT -5
Why does God reward the weak? People who need to believe in God because they're too scared to live their own lives get to go to Heaven, apparently while those of us that can actually think for ourselves are banished to the fiery depths of Hell for all eternity. Does that seem right to you? As far as the Buffyverse was concerned, Angel felt that he was going to Hell because he had done lots of terrible things as Angelus. He was to be punished for doing something morally wrong, nothing to do with his personal beliefs. Buffy, on the other hand, went to Heaven when she died. Was this a coincidence? Did she go to a Heavenly dimension because of who she was or did she just end up there by chance? She said in "The Freshman" that she hadn't yet taken Jesus Christ as her personal saviour and in "CWDP" she told Holden that there was "nothing solid" on the existence of God so it would seem that she isn't a Christian. Anyway, discuss that. It's more interesting than inconsistencies in the Bible. First, the Bible had no inconsistencies. Second, MrNasty, call it Joss' stereotypical mind on what Heaven is. In his mind, the good go to heaven, and the bad go to hell...which is the same stereotype in your mind... ;D But to be truthful, speaking Biblical for a minute, heaven isn't like that, there are going to be people who were once killers like Angelus. If you believe God's real, and that his son died for everyone, even you, then you'll go to heaven. And also, a nice study was taken on teen youth a few years back that found that kids/teens who believed in a higher being, like God, were more likely to become nice, calm citizens, while people who didn't are the troubled youth of this generation. People who believe in a higher being, gives them a purpose in life, lets them know there's a bigger range to their life. People who don't believe in God, or a higher being and purpose are more likely to commit suicide or go on a rampage and kill another person because they believe there is no purpose for them, and the only way they can find their own purpose is to commit crime or murder. The weak are actually the ones who don't believe in God or a higher being. They try to fill that void that is missing in their lives, and that can lead to doing drugs, drinking, commiting suicide, crimes,or murder. They're the weak ones. The strong ones are the ones who believe in a higher being or in God, because that void that was in the unbelievers life, is actually filled up in the ones who believe. I'm done. ;D But Buffy, she, I guess went to her heaven dimension just because she was the Slayer, the fighter against the forces of darkness...In Joss' way, she didn't have to be Christian to go to heaven...but I just think it was that stereotypical theory that all good people go to heaven and all bad people go to hell. Typical Joss Whedon style.
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