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Post by tjaman on Oct 11, 2004 11:40:32 GMT -5
*...and he says he's a kind person... * He has his moments. Very insightful approaches, c'golfa and g'wolf ! * applause *
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Post by Bango on Oct 11, 2004 12:02:44 GMT -5
He has his moments. Yes, but the bad outweights the good. ;D Grailwolf, why stop? I also read the whole chapter 28 of Ezekiel and found another similarity to the story from Isaiah 14:12-15...why stop so young?
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Post by tjaman on Oct 11, 2004 12:10:33 GMT -5
Yes, here's a dead and decaying horse no one's even riding any more, why not continue to beat the stuffing out of it? beat ... beat ... beat ...
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Post by Mr Nasty on Oct 11, 2004 12:36:05 GMT -5
I believe that there is a God, but I will accept the fact that there might not be a God. Why make the leap of faith?
I'm really interested as what you feel you gain by believing in a God that doesn't necessarily exist.
I must maintain that the only logical stance here when asked if there is a God is "I don't know" since it's the only honest and correct answer.
I ask Grailwolf the same question.
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Post by grailwolf on Oct 11, 2004 13:46:56 GMT -5
I must maintain that the only logical stance here when asked if there is a God is "I don't know" since it's the only honest and correct answer. I ask Grailwolf the same question. Actually, a very interesting question, if a bit hard to answer. I think you may have over-stated a bit by using the word "correct" however. None of us will know for certain whether or not there is a God until we meet Him/Her/It for ourselves, so until then the answer "I believe that there is a God" is equally correct. As far as "what I gain" by believing in a higher power, that is really a two part answer... First, my basic belief is founded more upon intuition than upon anything I may "gain" from that belief. It feels true to me that there is some higher power, but that is nothing I can back up with logic. I do not really feel that the rest of my beliefs require there to be a God, nor do I see any reason why those around me must do so. Hell, I believe in lots of things that would strike many people as a bit nutty (magick, ghosts, spirits, fae, the intelligence of nature, etc) and I certainly can understand why people don't generally believe in these things. I put God in the same category. The second part of the equation is my final test for any new concept or belief. "So what?" If I believe this thing, what effect does it have on my life? Many new philosophies that I otherwise agree with have no impact on my life at all. God is a little like that in some ways. The absence of a God in my beliefs would cause fairly little change in how I live my life. I am not a good person because I fear that God will punish me if I misbehave. I am a good person because it makes me feel good to be good to others. I love the feeling of doing someone a good turn and them not ever finding out who did it. It's total hedonism. I guess it's sort of like my opinion of the "everything happens for a reason" idea (a concept that I also choose to believe). I feel that there are two ways to live: 1) live like everything is random 2) live like everything happens for a reason There will be no real difference in the things you do regardless of which of these beliefs you embrace. However, I then have a choice. If something bad happens I can believe that it was random chance and just go on. The alternative is to believe that it was part of a larger pattern from which I was supposed to derive some sort of lesson. I will then look for the lesson and take something positive away from an otherwise negative situation. I see God in much the same way. Believing in The Is (at least, in the way I believe in It) does not make my life any different than it otherwise would be. However, it leads me to examine larger patterns in life, the universe and everything. It causes me to see things with a slightly different focus, and to consider things a bit more deeply than I, perhaps, otherwise would. There are other benefits, but they are all totally subjective and you've heard them all before (I feel more connected to life and nature, I feel an internal communion with the Divine that brings me great joy, etc, etc). They really aren't things I can codify or explain logically. I guess what it comes down to is: I believe in God because I wanna.
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Post by grailwolf on Oct 11, 2004 13:56:32 GMT -5
Grailwolf, why stop? I also read the whole chapter 28 of Ezekiel and found another similarity to the story from Isaiah 14:12-15...why stop so young? Basically, there is nothing to gain from further debate. I have stated my position as clearly as I am able in the limited space that this discussion deserves. You still see things differently. This was supposed to be an "oh, that's an interesting point, I hadn't noticed that" kind of post. It has no bearing whatsoever on any aspect of belief, just on the accuracy of human readings of the bible. It just isn't important enough for the frustration, nor enough to make these poor people read any more. Ever notice how these weird tangents pop up on the Tome and just kill all other conversation (it's been happening a lot lately)? Well, I note that no one else is jumping into this, and I don't want it to become one of those interruptions. We've reached an impasse where we have already started to just repeat our arguments. Better to just agree to disagree on this one point and move on. At least in my opinion.
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Post by Mr Nasty on Oct 11, 2004 14:03:44 GMT -5
Grailwolf: I guess that's fair enough. Thanks very much for the excellent response.
Crazygolfa is quite welcome to respond too if he so wishes. ;D
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Post by TheMasterGeek on Oct 11, 2004 16:16:35 GMT -5
Mr. Nasty, I wish I could give a logical reason why I believe that is a God. I just can't. It's a feeling that I have. Am I certain that there is one? No, but am I certain that isnt a God? That would have to be a no. I think it's the optimist in me that hopes that there is a God. I can't give you evidence that there is one.
Like I said, it is a feeling that I can't describe. Maybe I just want to believe in God, because my view of God is that it gives people hope. Call it naive or whatever. But it isnt the "fear" or "love" of God that compells me to do things, its me, or sometimes my muse. I wish I can explain more, but I cant come up with the right words.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Oct 11, 2004 16:32:31 GMT -5
All right, not having had time to read the last two pages yet, I'm just gonna throw this out there and duck.
I would be a gay atheist. Or as we like to be known, 'Gaytheist'
OK, I only included the gay part for the sake of the delightful wordplay.
That's right. No god, No half measure maybe about it. I respect everybody's right to believe whatever they want to, but there you have it.
LET THE PROSELYTIZING BEGIN!
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Post by grailwolf on Oct 11, 2004 16:45:03 GMT -5
*Proselytize! Proselytize!* Confess! Cake or death!
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Post by IllyriaWorshipper on Oct 11, 2004 17:00:04 GMT -5
Cake or death! Whats that suppost to mean?
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Oct 11, 2004 17:01:20 GMT -5
I was expecting a stern talking to much quicker than this.
Hmmm...
Surely SOMEONE should have shown up by now to teach me how to bake and weave and raise my heathen children?
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Post by Insane Troll Logic on Oct 11, 2004 17:04:39 GMT -5
You have heathen children?
;D
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Post by IllyriaWorshipper on Oct 11, 2004 17:11:33 GMT -5
Mmmm....... Cake. What kind of cake is it cause I'm hungrey.
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Post by Bango on Oct 11, 2004 20:16:03 GMT -5
Maybe I just want to believe in God, because my view of God is that it gives people hope. [glow=blue,2,300]Reading that sentence brings me back to "The Wish" with Anyanka and Giles... Anyanka: You trusting fool! How do you know the other world is any better than this? Giles: Because it has to be. [/glow]
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