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Post by tjaman on Oct 11, 2004 23:46:31 GMT -5
Py seems to be calling out for some sort of reaction to the fact that he is both gay and an atheist. There seem to be few takers, so I will do what I can.
{ahem}
* throws handful of confetti into the air and says "Yay!" * ... ?
I don't know if that's what you were going for, but I'd expect probably exactly the same reaction on this board for announcing boldly "I'm a Methodist! And I'm straight!"
You know we love you, Py, and it's not because you're in this or that category. I appreciate all of the challenging views and insights you share on this board, not because they're informed by this or that cultural community, but because they are reasoned, insightful -- and often hilarious -- and make our lives all the more full.
So, please, yes, absolutely, in that atheism is working for you, good. If at any time in the future you find that it isn't, I'd be more than happy to share any witness you'd care to hear ... not as some kind of a zealot, but as a friend.
And thank you -- because we don't say it enough -- thank you for the joy and the life you bring to this board.
* troubled by the feeling that that answer might have been proselytizing or patronizing in some way, and hoping against hope that it was not. *
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Post by Bango on Oct 11, 2004 23:58:04 GMT -5
[glow=blue,2,300]That was a beautiful speech TJ![/glow]
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Post by Mr Nasty on Oct 12, 2004 1:42:16 GMT -5
Ok Py, I'll ask you roughly the same question as I asked grailwolf and Crazygolfa (and thanks again for those responses, guys. ;D).
Why do you believe there is definitely no God when, in fact, it is literally impossible to logically conclude such a thing? Do you just like being a rebel, like the Jossmeister?
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Post by IllyriaWorshipper on Oct 12, 2004 2:27:35 GMT -5
How is PY being a rebel?
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Oct 12, 2004 10:23:30 GMT -5
TJ- Aw, come over here ya big galloof, Hugs all around!
Again, I only included the gay part because the term 'Gaytheist' makes me laugh. Much as if one were abducted by Gay Aliens one could refer to them as 'Gayliens' which also makes me laugh a lot.
Mr. Nasty- Not so much a matter of logical deduction, although I certainly have spent a lot of time thinking about it. I realize that there is no gigantic piece of sanctified litmus paper that one can delicately swab the sky with and come back with a definitive answer.
I just view religion as an engine of control over population. Which isn't an intrinsically bad thing. For a long long time culture NEEDED controls in place to foster growth of society and keep everyone from just doing whatever they felt like all the time.
I just think that for the most part that time has passed, and it's time for us as a society to grow up and take responsibility for ourselves without a comforting parent figure lurking out there saying, (if I might quote Matt Damon from Dogma) 'Do it.... Do it and I'll F***ing Smack you!'
That's one of the reasons that I'm so fascinated by the concept of 'good' divorced from religious context. If you assume that there is no God, than what IS the meaning of being 'good'? Why NOT simply run amok shooting people and being 'evil'?
Well, obviously there are plenty of good, altruistic reasons. It would be bad for society, It would be hurtful to others, etc. But what about INTERNAL controls within our behaviour? Do we even NEED a failsafe to keep us from murder? Can we be mature enough to just know not to do it without the threat of hell? Is it like telling a little child not to pee on the electric socket until their old enough to just know not to do it themselves?
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Oct 12, 2004 10:27:25 GMT -5
On a side note however, I do belive that there is much more going on in our world than we can see or rationally understand at this point.
I believe in ghosts, for example.
I believe in places that hold the memory of good or bad things that happen there.
I believe that it's possible for a piece of someone to remain behind once they're gone.
I think that some people are just evil, outside of their own control or understanding
I think that there's a lot we don't know
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Post by Mr Nasty on Oct 12, 2004 10:35:59 GMT -5
I just view religion as an engine of control over population. Which isn't an intrinsically bad thing. For a long long time culture NEEDED controls in place to foster growth of society and keep everyone from just doing whatever they felt like all the time. I just think that for the most part that time has passed, and it's time for us as a society to grow up and take responsibility for ourselves without a comforting parent figure lurking out there saying, (if I might quote Matt Damon from Dogma) 'Do it.... Do it and I'll F***ing Smack you!' I totally agree with that.Altruism doesn't exist, IMO. Sorry, just had to add that in. I'm not sure where you're going with that. I agree but I don't believe there is definitely no God. Why the leap of faith?
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Oct 12, 2004 10:38:31 GMT -5
I just spent a little time with myself and eventually came to realize that that was what I believed.
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Post by tjaman on Oct 12, 2004 10:48:03 GMT -5
Then what do you call your helping out charities? That's altruism, Mr.N; look it up.
Very thoughtful and considered answers, Py. There's been a lot of excellent dsicovery and self-awareness here.
Including the fact that Mr.N is, in point of fact, ALTRUISTIC!!!
Sorry, just made me giggle.
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Post by Mr Nasty on Oct 12, 2004 10:52:46 GMT -5
Py: Ok.
There obviously are a lot of things we don't know. I guess I just don't get why people put stock into these unknowns.
Why? The answer appears to be "just because".
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Post by Mr Nasty on Oct 12, 2004 10:56:21 GMT -5
That's altruism, Mr.N; look it up. Making people happy makes me feel better about myself, TJ. Therefore, it's not an entirely selfless action.
And nobody dare say "....in bed" ;D
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Post by tjaman on Oct 12, 2004 11:13:26 GMT -5
... IN BED!
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Post by Mr Nasty on Oct 12, 2004 11:14:32 GMT -5
Thank you.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Oct 12, 2004 12:29:42 GMT -5
It's the mixture of High-Concept and Lowbrow that really makes me heart the crap out of us.
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Post by Disgruntled Gremlin on Oct 12, 2004 19:09:36 GMT -5
Grailwolf- Thanks for your lovely description of your belief system. Really, I was just curious when I asked (being Wiccan can mean just about anything under the sun, after all). And the ism vs ality, I goofed. Bad Gremmy.
Mr. Nasty, I think you were a bit presumptuous. A lot of your post about your ideas could be taken as a bit...well...shall we say, patronizing? I believe painting entire belief systems with the same brush is simply too general- I don't think religion is a good thing or a bad thing on its own, nor can we quantatatively decide- it's what people do with their beliefs. I believe that when people attack others for their beliefs, it is not their religion at fault, but the people themselves. I'll save you some time- you'll point out that they wouldn't have committed said atrocities if it weren't for religion. I'll argue that these people would've found some other way to be confrontational anyway ('cuz let's face it, people simply have violence and war in their blood). Then I'll say 'let Grailwolf' handle the specifics- he's just got more info (and is certainly more credible than I am). More on what I'm talking about further down.
Bango- Yes, you were being snippy back there
TJ- I think it's awesome that you're helping people in need- I wish I had the guts to go out and do something for the world. But for now, I'll just keep typing.
Now, this will probably get controversial, but I think I'll lay down my beliefs about religion.
I believe religion can definitely be a good thing- in fact, I think the ideas are excellent, amazing, life-changing, and probably the thing that has kept humanity going- religion shows people what life is supposed to be about. When religion is manipulated, twisted, or just plain over-analyzed, and the true values are lost, it THEN becomes something negative. Where most of us are posting from, we have it a whole lot better than a lot of the world. For many people, religion is the one thing that keeps them going. When times are rough, religion is always there for people. In our society, life is good enough that not everyone needs religion- in fact, belief systems are usually passed down or chosen by people. At this point in society, I think a sense of spirituality is beneficial (but if you're not open minded, it certainly makes life more difficult), but not necessary for everyone.
Hope that made some kind of sense. Ah well, I'm pretty incoherent most of the time anyways. See ya-
...in bed!
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