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Post by tjaman on Jul 6, 2005 14:36:23 GMT -5
* sends Feigy a virtual hug, and ITL a virtual * guffaw! * *
Any G-d that knows our hearts to judge them knows the circumstances that made them. Just ... throwin' it out there.
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Post by quantumcat on Jul 6, 2005 17:20:34 GMT -5
Amen!
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 6, 2005 17:50:08 GMT -5
I'll be sure to respond to these posts tonight. I am almost completely sure whatever I say will sound arrogant, or mean or something because that is what everybody says when I say something.
Even when I poured my heart out and tried showing what the power of the Lord can do to someone completely lost it didn't seem to blow over well.
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Post by quantumcat on Jul 6, 2005 18:12:41 GMT -5
Reb!
If you think we might have read arrogance in your words when it wasn't meant,could you have read rejection in ours when we've done everything we know how to show we respect both you AND what you believe?
(love is one thing,respect is another. you're getting BOTH,young man!)
If some of us aren't on the same page you are and are trying to show you their perspective,how is that worse than you differing from them and wanting to demonstrate your side?
we appreciated you telling us about how God remade your spirit but that was evident just in who you are and how you care about people.
Even if you got Billy Graham and John Hagee and Kenneth Copeland together you'd get different takes on the scriptures.
Ben Franklin,James Madison and Thomas Jefferson weren't 100% agreed on politics yet they managed to build a pretty decent country together.
Give us the same right to have our own views as you would them.
Friends don't have to duplicate each others' thoughts. they just have to give them a fair shot.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 6, 2005 23:09:17 GMT -5
You've been born again for four months and a week, Reb. Your life isn't likely to be over "soon," as you put it -- unless you continue to neglect your health as you have. You've probably got a good 60 to 70 years left, and even if you mean that time as "soon," yes, life is short, but you can play an awful lot of checkers in that time.
You've been born again, blessed with a renewed spirit, new baptized and communed. Excellent.
So have I. For 22 years, now.
My relationship with G-d has moved beyond Scripture to pure experience. That may sound arrogant, but after you read the Bible enough times -- in enough versions -- you gain a perspective on what a human document it ultimately is, and why not? It's G-d's message to humanity, presented within the context of a single, yet infinitely varied -- world faith; i.e., Christianity. My perspective is somewhat more universal than that, because it's inspired by a G-d that is so much larger than a single human tradition.
My faith has moved from periods of spiritual crisis that led me to find a new faith community altogether (which does, even when moving between Christian denominations, take some guts).
Is this sufficient?
Well ...
I've never brought this up, but a few years ago a group of kids destroyed my car. They were tracked back to the rez, they were completely uninsured, they were rushing home from a party strung out on something because it was 7 a.m. on a Saturday morning (I was headed to the gym, of all motivations) and they went through the stoplight like it didn't exist. If I'd been coming through the intersection from the other direction I would not be here to write this.
My credit rating took a serious hit. The car they destroyed was my first new (well, new to me) car I'd ever purchased, and I'd just finished paying for it. I had to change insurance companies after the one I'd been working with screwed me on the deal (and I discovered how extraordinarily businesslike a really good financial screwing can be).
And there's no good reason it happened. The event itself is morally neutral. I've never received an apology from any of the five kids I saw in that car before they sped away, abandoned that vehicle and hopped another one to get back home (so there's another nameless, faceless person whose life became all the more interesting that day).
And I've forgotten the names of the kids involved, and -- I'm not saying this happened immediately -- but I've forgiven them. And that was not easy. And I was angry, because I was also confronted by how much of a materialist I was. And ...
It took a good long while. But I learned more about letting go, and to reduce my definition of self with things, and if nothing about that morning is ever resolved, I know I'm loved. I know no one was hurt, and I've tried to be more realistic and philosophical about the true values of relationships over things.
As an example, this ^^^^^ is one place you can get to if you give yourself 20 years.
And in 20 years more? Heavens, Reb, I didn't think I'd ever be able to pray my way past a chunk loss of $5,000. And some people lose their entire life savings, and their reputations and their jobs, and their families. How do people find the strength to do that?
Hell, how do we find the strength to get up out of bed every day and face this imperfect, flawed, frazzled, materialistic, consumer-driven television world with its people blown here and there by every fad and whim and all of the Ecclesiastian meaninglessness that surrounds us?
There's only one source I've found that's greater than the world, and all of the world's silliness, and all of the world's meaninglessness, and all of the world's brokenness, and that's from the inner strength renewed within me daily -- hourly -- by the Holy Spirit.
Whatever meaning I find in the world is so much less likely to come from a centuries old prophetic writing than from a frantic phone call like the one I took this morning to place an announcement about a support group forming to help people suffering from an eating disorder -- the meeting time was changing at the last minute and they needed to let people know.
The monk who sits on a pole for months at a time and hangs himself up by his nostrils has not shown the grace of one tending to the sick for an evening.
It's a powerful message, Reb. Progress is slow, but it's progress. Keep it up.
Oh yeah -- I couldn't shut up about this stuff when it was as new to me as it is to you -- like I was the first person who ever read the Bible. It's exciting, and I admire your enthusiasm. Just ...
We love you, Reb. And speaking for myself -- which, incidentally, is all I've been doing thoughout, but that's mostly obvious -- I look forward to seeing where your path takes you.
Just ... sorry. I'm not planning to get all up in a bunch about what Jeremiah wrote 2,600 years ago. Still love you! ;D
* lighter * for Cordy, as well, btw. Well said. I meant soon as in this life doesn't last long anyway. It's eternity afterward that is the excitement. That's why I wouldn't mind dying right now. I have already achieved life and I look forward to Heaven. So I go about the day no matter how horrible it is only with a twinkle in my heart letting me know that things will be alright and pain is only temporary compared to a lifetime in happiness. Even if the pills I am taking now kill me it'll be ok because I have nothing to worry about anymore. I'll always have the same level of excitement and enthusiasm even if i live here longer. The spark will remain and it won't tarnish inside me with age. It will alway be there completely. I also look forward to seeing where it takes me. Better then what I have been through before. And through the power involved it can be done. Also I commend your journey as well. You've also had to deal with quite a bit just as I have.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 6, 2005 23:18:09 GMT -5
Reb, nobody's faulting you for your faith, your confidence in the Word or any of the important stuff. We're just saying you're like the child at Christmas who's so blown away by the first present he's unwrapped that he's blind to what's left under the tree. you think *this* is good? ?? This is the 'puppy love' stage where you're first holding your sweetheart's hand. It's all music and skyrockets and joy so powerful it hurts. But you've got a lot of different kinds of ecstacy waiting for you. a lot of it might seem dull and lukewarm now but (believe it or not) you get to a *comfortable* stage with God,too. To continue with the romantic analogy,there comes a time when sweeping dead bugs from inside storm windows with the one you love brings more pleasure than dancing in the moonlight used to-especially if that dancing was with somebody else. So if we seem less worked up about the end times, it's because we've had more 'here-and-nows' than you. If it ends tomorrow,we're ready. we've had full lives. Some regrets but a lot of happiness. We know that just as we think we couldn't have anything more added to our lives,more arrives. So we take it one day at a time It might be different if we weren't prepared. If we were less secure. But you don't sweat the pop tests much if you know the material. you don't fear the winter if your house is snug and your larder is full. you learn to go about your business without dwelling on tomorrow or yesterday. Today will suffice. There is nothing wrong or humorous about the stage you're in but it's a part of your journey. We're in different places. Not better or worse-just different. Wring every bit of the wisdom and strength and gladness out of this 'honeymoon' stage but be warned that even the times of pain and loss and uncertainty will be richer the riper your faith becomes. it DOES get better than this. Don't rush toward tomorrow till you've used up today. I hope nobody thinks I am faulty. Hard to tell at times. The end of times does get me worked up. I am already prepared for what may take place and I have learned what will happen to me for believing so strongly. Some of which have come true. I care about everything so much that is why I insist so much. I don't do it for my health even though it has affected it quite a bit over the past several months. I take each day one day at a time. I know I couldn't take it each day at a time without a mission to follow the present truth and let the light shine. There would be no point of living if I had not have found the Lord. I would have went through with what I was going to do in early February.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 6, 2005 23:20:45 GMT -5
For the Geographically detail oriented - Babylon, also called Mesopotamia, roughly laid out as the region between the length of the Tigris and Euphrates. True enough that a lot of that region lays within the boundries of Iraq. However, portions of what was most likely Babylon (ancient cartographers being a bit thin on the ground at this point) are also to be found in Syria and Turkey to the North, Kuwait to the Southeast, and Iran to the East along the Persian Gulf line. ALso, Iraq extends a great further both to the Southwest and the Northeast than any description of Mesopotamia makes claim to. Interestingly enough, Bagdad- If it was withing the outline of Babylon, would have been right at the edge. And the vast majority of trouble spots in Iraq right now are in fact well outside the generally accepted area of Babylon/Mesopotamia. To say nothing of the fact that pretty much all of the oil reserves are outside of any definition of Babylon's boundaries, putting the lie to the 'Fuel is burning' portion of the prophecy. (a passage that, by the by, seems pretty clearly intended as a metaphor for the violence of the region (as seen by Jeremia in that time) turning in on itself and devouring it's own tail, as it were.) Them's, geographically speaking, the facts. As I said I would I am going to recheck again. I have already gotten confirmations and I have only received negative confirmation here only. I guess I have to back up the Lord's Prophets as well.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 6, 2005 23:29:34 GMT -5
I appologize ahead of time if what I say is repetitive as, I pooped out a bit on the reading of this thread since last I posted.... But, here goes...
I would like to take this opportunity to say, while Reb is busy feeling pitty for all us heathons, it is I who feel pitty for him. He seems so adament about helping people "see the light." You know...it's not just religious faith that have people such as yourself.
In the world of mental health therapy/ counseling. There are MANY people who are on a mission to get people to see the error of their ways. In the counseling biz however, if you come in so idealistic that you think everyone will listen to you cause they should, or are going to help everyone you counsel. Than you will burn out so fast, you're head spins. Those people don't make it. They end up quitting and blaming themselves for not being helpful to people.
I see you headed down that same path of disenchantment and it saddens me. Because a spiritual crisis is a horrible thing to go through. Keep the faith. And don't worry bout us. I think it may be best if you worry only about what you can control in this life and not dwell on the things that are beyond it. Have you not heard the phrase, "give it to G-d" ? Perhaps you may want to think on that for a bit. Don't feel sorry for us. We don't need your pitty. We would love to have your non-judgemental support.
Oh and I did catch a bit about your life story back there and I must say...
While I know that having people with you is important...There were plenty of people from these forums who did their best under the circumstances to help you through your crisis. Fancy that, a bunch of unsaved sods like us being supportive. So, unless I missed it in your post...which I may have...thanks for not appreciating us.
Now, since people are giving their life-story. I'd like to say that I appreciate what you said tj about the suicide thingy.
My mother had 6 children, and now she's down to 3. I lost my older brother in 1997. And my twin Brother in January of this year. My older brother shot himself in the head. So, I guess you could say that sends him straight to hell.
That's not including a s**tty childhood exacerbated by s**tty parentage. I've had my share of trials and tribulations...as well as guilt and sin. So, yeah, I also know what it's like to contemplate suicide. I felt close to it, when the closest thing to me in this world, died from a brain aneurism (SP) this January.
But I don't feel the need to tell people that because I've found a way to cope with life AND death in a certain way, they should use my way to do it too. You know, and this is just me...but I managed to deal with my brother's death and am still dealing with it...without the use of the bible and prophecy. I dealt with it by talking to people who knew him; mourning with my family; and more importantly...I delt with it by the support of others who think similarly about my brother as I did.
Perhaps you might find your spiritual journey easier, if you found more like minded people instead of towing your road alone. Always searching for people to join you. How can you gain nurishment in faith if all you have to feed on is your own spirituality with which to draw from? You seem to be looking very hard for some spiritual connection with other people. I hope you find it. Number 1 I have nowhere anywhere said the words heathen and pitying people. All I have said is I want others to be happy for eternity. Number 2 I have posted numerous among numerous times of my appreciation. I can't pull them up because the Tome is gone but they were all there if you read them. Saying that I don't have appreciation really blows my top. So far I have drawn my strength only through the Lord. People find it hard to support me for some reason. But I do hold strong. I have made some connections in life and they have helped me with this full face. Is it so wrong of me to care about people's salvation so much?
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Post by tjaman on Jul 7, 2005 0:13:45 GMT -5
Kinda.
Try an "Andrew" approach for a while. Andrew was a disciple who brought people to Christ. Once they were there, his job was done.
Share your story with people. It's good and it's powerful. It may even be persuasive.
Hovering, nagging, goading, insisting, etc., these things might ultimately be counterproductive.
As you've been told again and again, G-d's in charge of salvation. You. Aren't.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 7, 2005 0:17:39 GMT -5
Kinda.
Try an "Andrew" approach for a while. Andrew was a disciple who brought people to Christ. Once they were there, his job was done.
Share your story with people. It's good and it's powerful. It may even be persuasive.
Hovering, nagging, goading, insisting, etc., these things might ultimately be counterproductive.
As you've been told again and again, G-d's in charge of salvation. You. Aren't. I have tried a different in detail approach with real life change and experience. Not sure if it blew over well though. I will try even more detail tomorrow.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Jul 7, 2005 9:15:03 GMT -5
Now I'm curious- When the whole 'Kuwait' affair was going on, did the biblically minded claim that the end-times prophecy RE: Babylon was going on then as well? I honestly don't remember if they did or not.
I only point out that, geographically speaking, Kuwait has ever bit as much claim to being 'Babylon' as Iraq does.
More, actually, in the a much larger percentage of Kuwait is made up of land that was once Babylon than is the case with Iraq.
Syria and Turkey's claims would, of neccesity, be somewhat spurious. SO it's just as well that they haven't bothered to make them.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Jul 7, 2005 9:25:45 GMT -5
And I should clarify, I'm not debating the biblical prophecy side of it with you Reb. I'm just looking at this in terms of pure, factual, geography. Babylon is not Iraq. One was a chunk of the region thousands of years ago, the other is a mostly different chunk of the region in the present day. While some of what was Babylon lies within the boundaries of present day Iraq, there's a lot more of Iraq that WASN'T the region on Babylon, and quite a bit of Babylon that isn't Iraq. That's all I'm saying. This actually dovetails nicely to a larger point about research. It will come as little surprise to anyone here that I love the crap out of research. The important thing to remember when researching something is that it's not only possible to research the same thing from different perspective, it's actually neccesary if you want to gain a complete understanding of things. The reason that we're getting different answers to the question of Ancient Babylon is that we're researching it from different perspectives. You're researching solely from a biblical perspective (which is perfectly valid), whereas I'm primarily looking at it from the perspective of pure geography. You're going to get different answers from different sources, and it's important to look at them all because, regardless of what people like to believe, Empirical truth is pretty thin on the ground. ESPECIALLY when it comes to either history or religion. As a side note - I did actually check out the biblical perspective while researching, and I have to tell you- the geographical info on sites such as Leftbehind and lastprophecy or whatever that second one was called was so laughably vague as to be completely meaningless. And there was CLEARLY some distortion going on with their maps of the region.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Jul 7, 2005 9:26:23 GMT -5
ANd you never did tell me if you thought less of me because I don't believe in an afterlife.
Just curious.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 7, 2005 10:48:38 GMT -5
I originally got my info from a sermon and I did some checking of my own.
I do know there are 2 Babylons. There is ancient Babylon and a religious Babylon. Ancient Babylon will never rise again.
Religious Babylon, on the other hand, will rise much later. This is the Babylon the beast will have control over with the Harlot. A perfect figure many will follow.
I will still do some spot checking since everybody loves proof on everything. Even Jesus says people won't believe because they constantly want physical proof.
And no I don't think less of you. I just feel sadness that's all.
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Post by tjaman on Jul 7, 2005 11:03:50 GMT -5
Why? Maybe he's wrong, and he'll die and he'll go to heaven.
Nicer surprise than if we're wrong, and if we're wrong, it really doesn't matter one way or t'other.
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