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Post by quantumcat on Aug 3, 2005 21:37:00 GMT -5
you can carry off pink.....
i wish the boys the best but sometimes i think i'm going to be busted by the yenta union for practicing without a license.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Aug 4, 2005 12:53:08 GMT -5
I apologize WELL in advance for the length of the following post. Get drinks and go to the restroom now.
<Let's go out to the Lo-bby, Let's go out to the LO-bby...>
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Aug 4, 2005 12:53:42 GMT -5
Reb,
About once every two weeks, like clockwork, the Feller asks me “So are you starting to believe in God yet? Even a little?” And as much as I would dearly love to give him the answer I know he’d like to hear, I can’t. Because it would be a lie.
OK- First things first. I need you to read this next bit very carefully and believe what I’m telling you. I read every word of your post. Several times. I thought about everything you were saying. I UNDERSTAND what you were saying. And yes, I think we have a good friendship, and I would in no way want to hurt your feelings or upset you.
I don’t want there to be any question about those facts, right up front.
I read. I heard. I understood.
Before I begin, a few fun facts about Py-
-When I was about 14 I went through my ‘Mega-Lutheran’ stage. Basically, I decided to be the most devout, holiest, most sanctified person I could be. I went into mega-bible mode. I suspect this was because I was hoping jesus would magic the ‘gay’ out of me.
-Despite the fact that it’s never been mentioned, I’d be willing to bet that my life thus far has had every bit as much trauma as yours, if not more. I say this not knowing your full story of course. Let’s just say that I know MY story, and I’m willing to play the odds on this one.
-I have in fact read and thought about the entire Bible. Several times, in fact.
-I came out when I was 23, after I finally got it through my head that it was how I was born, and no amount of pretending was going to make it go away.
Now, with that business out of the way,
What you don’t seem to understand, Reb, is that the argument your making here is only convincing if you already agree with your basic set of beliefs. Being threatened with Hell is not terribly convincing if you don’t believe that there’s a hell to go to. See what I mean?
Let me illustrate- When you say ‘A person such as myself can go from lost and non-knowing to found and given life forever. Doesn’t that sound great?’ Sure it sounds great. I also think it would sound great to be granted magical powers and go to Hogwarts, but that doesn’t mean that I expect to get a letter from them.
It only sounds great if you believe that it really exists. And let’s face it- if I thought it really existed, I’d probably already be a Christian. Since following that tenet of beliefs is kind of the definition.
And a side note. I have no desire to live forever. Things begin, things end. That’s kind of the intrinsic beauty of existence.
I’d also take exception to the statement that life here could never be paradise. I think that’s actually a pretty relative statement. It depends, I suppose, on what kind of paradise you’re looking for.
You also seem to have the belief that if I don’t agree with your religious beliefs my life can’t possibly have any meaning or purpose. And that’s…. well…. That’s just insulting, frankly. I don’t mean that to sound harsh, but it is. Take, for example, the Dali Lama, one of the most influential activists towards peace of our time. I don’t men to shock you, but he isn’t a Christian. Does that mean that his life has no meaning or purpose? Of course not. Clearly his life has quite a bit of meaning and purpose.
“I would hope that you wouldn’t want to die for Satan to have.”
Again, no, I don’t suppose I would.
I also don’t want to be eaten by leprechauns.
If I believed in leprechauns, I would certainly take steps to prevent that from happening. The same is true in regard to satan.
OK, now this next part is important. You say-
“You may have heard some say this: lets use this in general “This person has never accepted Jesus into there hearts as savior and Lord but on judgment day they will see there good person and good life they will be in Heaven”. If someone has ever told this then they need to be slapped across the face because this is a heretical bold face lie.”
Yes. And then we should hijack their aircraft and fly them into their skyscrapers. How DARE they believe something different than you or I do.
That’s the road you’re taking there. You’ve just advocated using physical violence against someone else FOR NO OTHER REASON than the fact that they hold different religious beliefs than you. I beg you to think about the implications of that.
It disturbs me, Reb, that quite frequently when you encounter someone who believes something other than your interpretation of the Bible you accuse them of ‘coming up with excuses no to hear the truth’
What this says, at the end of the day is ‘My opinion is valid. Only my opinion is valid. Anyone who holds a different opinion than mine must be stupid.’
Which is, again, a fairly insulting thing to say to people. Because again, at the end of the day, all religious beliefs are a matter of belief. Personal belief. Based on personal opinion.
And a word about the ‘They talk against me’ excuse that we use to not ‘hear the truth’.
You are either born gay or you’re born straight. Period.
The Bible flat out says that homosexuals will go to Hell for being unclean.
What you’re saying is that I should choose to embrace a religion that expects me to apologize on a daily basis simply for being born the way I am. And I’m sorry, but I’m simply not willing to do that. Under any circumstances. Because being gay is something to be proud of, not something to be ashamed of.
And here’s my genuine question- What exactly would you have me, in an ideal world, do? Accept Christ, learn to hate myself for my sexuality, Break up an extremely happy life with Roy (ruining his life in the process I might add) and try to pretend to be straight for the rest of my life? Possibly get married to some nice girl that I have no sexual interest in and ruin her life as well in the process?
I don’t think that that’s a course likely to increase my sense of personal fulfillment.
Or perhaps the expectation is that Jesus would magically take that pesky ‘gay’ right out of me. I would then ask why he’s never done this for Roy, despite the fact that he’s deeply religious and spent a good portion of his life wanting nothing more than to be ‘turned straight’
No amount of religion will change your sexuality. And being gay is nothing to be ashamed of. It’s who you are. Anyone who says differently is just wrong.
This is getting a bit long, so I’ll sum up the last few points. ‘Falseness and fake teachings’ is an awfully judgmental way of saying ‘other people’s religious beliefs’
Choosing a religious belief ‘just in case’ in order to cover your bases in case the rapture comes seems like a fairly shallow way to show faith in something. I can’t imagine any God who’d be flattered by being viewed as an insurance policy. It’s God, not State Farm.
‘They need to be scared and fear the Lord, because he is a merciful God.’ – I’m actually not in the habit of being afraid of people that I know for a fact are merciful.
In closing. I appreciate your gesture for a kindness on your part and an act of friendship. I really do. But I’m sorry, Reb, I don’t believe in the same things you believe in. This isn’t a decision I’ve just made in my head. This is what I’ve discovered after thirty some years of examining my heart to discover what it is I truly believe. I respect the Feller too much to lie to him about what I find there, and as my friend I think you deserve no less than the truth as well.
Mike, Aka Py
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Post by tjaman on Aug 4, 2005 13:01:54 GMT -5
* affirms *
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Post by quantumcat on Aug 4, 2005 15:21:02 GMT -5
i agree wholeheartedly. i admit that i still think that the people who are bright and loving are thisclose to God and may well come around to committing to Him. I suspect that when they do,they'll be better believers than i could ever imagine being. But that has to be their choice, done in their time. Because this is a far more important issue than my wanting my illiterate friends to learn to read a book a week or my wanting the people I love to get yearly physicals- or even my wanting my husband to try grits. This is a lot closer to my trying to tell someone when to have children or how to vote when they've pulled jury duty for a capitol crime. Some things just aren't my business. I'll share any information i think they could use and i'll pray for them till God puts me on hold-but i will have to let them make their life choices for themselves. why? 1. I'm not always right. (i know that's hard for some of you to believe, but,trust me,i'm right about this.) 2. Any forced decision is worthless. 3.I can trust my friends (including God) to see that the right moves are made even if it's not accomplished according to my preferences. 4.I want the people who love me to respect me enough to let me live my own life so i have to give them that respect in return. yes,i will give someone the very dickens if i see them hurting themselves or others. I won't pretend to condone destructive acts. But there isn't a one of us who isn't a work in progress and it's not my place to say that even the missteps might not be leading us to God in the direction he needs us to take. Maybe someday God will give me a laminated booklet outlining His plans for all the folks i care about. Then maybe i can think about dictating to them what they're supposed to do when. But so long as i don't even know whether i'm supposed to be concentrating more on my selfish nature or my indeciveness,I'm not equipped to be coercing folk who are doing a better job at emulating God than i am. For now,let's put this in God's hands and trust that He won't put that much of himself into a person just to watch him or her slip from his grasp.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Aug 4, 2005 15:26:17 GMT -5
I DO like grits.
Does that get me anything?
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Post by Insane Troll Logic on Aug 4, 2005 15:32:05 GMT -5
i admit that i still think that the people who are bright and loving are thisclose to God and may well come around to committing to Him. ] It's a moot point if you're not a believer, though.
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Post by tjaman on Aug 4, 2005 15:35:05 GMT -5
* silent awe *
(not for the grits, Py -- sorry -- rather, for the Wisdom two posts to the north)
I especially liked the bit about the struggle between selfishness or indecisiveness, and No. 4 is right up there.
Thank you for being a blessing, q'cat.
And, naturally, ;D
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Post by tjaman on Aug 4, 2005 15:39:34 GMT -5
Oh, and ITL -- it's OK for believers to see the love of G-d shining through others, even if, for those others, it's nothing more than our own delusion, yes?
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Post by quantumcat on Aug 4, 2005 15:50:14 GMT -5
thanks,tjaman! i think y'all are all blessings.... and ,yes,Py. grits appreciation is a step in the right direction....
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Aug 4, 2005 15:53:08 GMT -5
With salt, pepper, and a big dollup of butter.
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Post by Insane Troll Logic on Aug 4, 2005 16:00:27 GMT -5
Oh, and ITL -- it's OK for believers to see the love of G-d shining through others, even if, for those others, it's nothing more than our own delusion, yes?
Yup, true - I was pointing out that committing to god is on the whole a moot point for most non-believers, no matter now bright and loving they are.
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Post by quantumcat on Aug 4, 2005 16:01:26 GMT -5
amen!
Py,if i did think it was my job to change your orientation,i'd introduce you to a fellow i knew from seminary.
a few hours in his company just about cured MY atrraction to men for all time.
but your mileage may vary.....
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Aug 4, 2005 16:04:47 GMT -5
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Post by Dr. Purple Goddess on Aug 4, 2005 16:26:38 GMT -5
Thank you Py for sharing your response to Reb's post here. I couldn't agree more with what you were saying.
I would just like to say, that I respect others' belief in a higher power. Religion does serve a sociological purpose. If it can help guide those who need guiding, than I am all for it.
on a personal note. My father was a real ugly piece of work. He was an abusive drunkard who was raised Roman Catholic. I am by no means being critical of that religion. But, he was not the best example of someone who lived the way god would want.
Needless to say, eventually, he "found God" and converted to another religion. And even though, I don't believe in God, I must admit that since he took his religiosity and spirituality more seriously, on the whole, he has become a much better person for having embraced such beliefs.
Of course, reduced levels of testosterone, maturity, and just plain getting older, and maybe a lil wiser, have also played a part in his transformation. But he believes these changes are from God. So, who am I to argue with that?
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