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Post by Rebelman on Jul 4, 2005 11:45:13 GMT -5
And from their perspective, they're just living their lives under an oppressive dictatorial regime, people keep shooting at them, bombs keep going off, none of their water, electrical, or infrastructural systems are working or reliable, their most outrageous religious leaders are telling them that their attackers are evil and darned if that message isn't sticking a little bit for some of them.
You think we're coming out of this "liberation" we're doing over there looking especially good?
* reflecting on our horrific behavior in the Abu Grabby prison * You're not suggesting for a moment that G-d's OK with that, are you? All I am saying is all this has taken place whether anybody wants to believe it or not. Or find alterate excuses to make it sound untrue.
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Post by Dr. Purple Goddess on Jul 4, 2005 11:45:46 GMT -5
I expected much opposition but that is ok. Here we go with some more: "My people have been lost sheep; their shepherds have led them astray and caused them to roam on the mountains. They wandered over mouintain and hill and forgot their own resting place. Whoever found them devoured them; their enemies said "We are not guilty" for they sinned against the Lord, their true pasture, the Lord, the hope of their fathers" Sounds familiar to me "For I will stir up and bring against Babylon an alliance of great nations from the north" Already happened. "The will take up their positions against her and from the north she will be captured" The alliance of nations capture Babylon. "Shout against her on every side! She surrenders, her towers fall, her walls are torn down" Already happened. This is all referring to this area not some other area. This vision is totally devoted to this area. And yet, still no quantitative or qualifying landmarks. hmmm I wonder why I didn't get what I asked for? Ah yes, because it's a vague prophecy, and there are none. Oh and, during any occupation/ war/etc., you're most likely to be attacked on all sides imagine that? So, in my opinion you still haven't given me anything for me to believe conclusively that this has "already happened" Hence, your opinion. But hey, if you think it's true than it must be. So who am I to argue?
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Post by tjaman on Jul 4, 2005 11:46:21 GMT -5
In re the bolded part: What do you suppose they used in their lamps, Reb?
It's not "scary." It's irrelevant. People used lamps 3,000 years ago. Maybe candlelight but lamps. Why is what I just wrote just got to be wrong in every single way possible? They had fuel, Reb. They had oil that they used in their lamps. You make it sound like until petroleum was discovered that the passages were meaningless to everyone.
Put another way: If Jeremiah was saying stuff people wouldn't be able to get their heads around for thousands of years, he'd probably be considered less of a prophet and more of a flake.
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Post by tjaman on Jul 4, 2005 11:48:15 GMT -5
Reb - Mesopotamia has ALWAYS been an area of wars, invasions, empire building, you name it. There were invasions around 1900bc when the Sumerian empire fell which led to the rise of the Babylonian empire. The Assyrians, Persians, Alexander the great, the Selucids and the Partheans held Babylon. The Romans were there. EVERYONE has had an interest in holding Babylon, and Mesopotamia in general - for reasons of trade, politics, strategic location, oil, you name it. So linking these prophecies with the current conflict seems meaningless, to me. * lighter *
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 4, 2005 11:49:14 GMT -5
People used lamps 3,000 years ago. Maybe candlelight but lamps. Why is what I just wrote just got to be wrong in every single way possible? They had fuel, Reb. They had oil that they used in their lamps. You make it sound like until petroleum was discovered that the passages were meaningless to everyone.
Put another way: If Jeremiah was saying stuff people wouldn't be able to get their heads around for thousands of years, he'd probably be considered less of a prophet and more of a flake.TJ do you believe any of the prophets or the Gospel or do you think it was all made up? I am trying to get an understanding of things.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 4, 2005 11:49:59 GMT -5
I expected much opposition but that is ok. Here we go with some more: "My people have been lost sheep; their shepherds have led them astray and caused them to roam on the mountains. They wandered over mouintain and hill and forgot their own resting place. Whoever found them devoured them; their enemies said "We are not guilty" for they sinned against the Lord, their true pasture, the Lord, the hope of their fathers" Sounds familiar to me "For I will stir up and bring against Babylon an alliance of great nations from the north" Already happened. "The will take up their positions against her and from the north she will be captured" The alliance of nations capture Babylon. "Shout against her on every side! She surrenders, her towers fall, her walls are torn down" Already happened. This is all referring to this area not some other area. This vision is totally devoted to this area. And yet, still no quantitative or qualifying landmarks. hmmm I wonder why I didn't get what I asked for? Ah yes, because it's a vague prophecy, and there are none. Oh and, during any occupation/ war/etc., you're most likely to be attacked on all sides imagine that? So, in my opinion you still haven't given me anything for me to believe conclusively that this has "already happened" Hence, your opinion. But hey, if you think it's true than it must be. So who am I to argue?Are you mad at me? I will look through Genesis because it gives definite on how Babylon came to be.
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Post by Dr. Purple Goddess on Jul 4, 2005 11:59:26 GMT -5
Reb, don't even start the "are you mad at me" business. You wanted a debate, so you've got one. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm mad at you. I am a bit annoyed however, that you can't just say the phrase "in my opinion" it's a compromise that doesn't give any less weight to what you say or what you think is true. It's just plain respectful of others' beliefs and truths.
I am by no means disputing you. As my knowledge of the bible may not be as extensive as yours or tjs But I refuse to allow you to play the Martyr card when people are bringing up legitimate points to the things you say.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 4, 2005 12:04:22 GMT -5
Reb, don't even start the "are you mad at me" business. You wanted a debate, so you've got one. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm mad at you. I am a bit annoyed however, that you can't just say the phrase "in my opinion" it's a compromise that doesn't give any less weight to what you say or what you think is true. It's just plain respectful of others' beliefs and truths.
I am by no means disputing you. As my knowledge of the bible may not be as extensive as yours or tjs But I refuse to allow you to play the Martyr card when people are bringing up legitimate points to the things you say. Ok that'll work. As I said I will go through Genesis and pull some more concreteness. I just found it weird when I read that people want the proof thing and refuse faith alone. That's even in the bible and that still holds up to this very day. Am i disrespectful by everyone's beliefs. Not exactly because Genesis describes where all these alternates came from. When the tribes sprung out all these false idols and non believers began. Still true to this day. Has anyone here every watched the movie Revelation? I think everyone should watch it and get a feel of things.
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Post by tjaman on Jul 4, 2005 12:04:41 GMT -5
They had fuel, Reb. They had oil that they used in their lamps. You make it sound like until petroleum was discovered that the passages were meaningless to everyone.
Put another way: If Jeremiah was saying stuff people wouldn't be able to get their heads around for thousands of years, he'd probably be considered less of a prophet and more of a flake. TJ do you believe any of the prophets or the Gospel or do you think it was all made up? I am trying to get an understanding of things. This prophecy was in the Bible when you were 8 years old, Reb, before you'd ever read it. It was in the Bible in 1963, in 1821, in 1654 and back in 350. It was in Hebrew Scripture in 43 B.C. and it was in there all the way back to when Jeremiah wrote it down or when it was written down for him.
Just because you read it now and see something happening somewhere in the world that sort of corresponds, doesn't mean that it's finally coming true.
Like I said in the ML Bible thread, the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah were not in any way met in Christ. I'm not a Christian because Isaiah told me to be. My faith in Christ doesn't rely upon Scriptures nor prophecies nor signs nor wonders nor any human artifact. It is a direct spiritual experience.
You don't understand that, and there's no way I can make you understand that. I don't need for you to believe in the same way that I do, and my faith does not rely upon your acceptance.
Believe the entire Old Testament if it makes you happy. Reject, be offended at or "feel sad for" those of us who have a rather more mystical approach to G-d's word if that makes you feel good.
G-d loves you. I love you. There's no problem here beyond the one you're making. You're allowed to see every random thing that happens as having been foretold, and in that your life is all the more infused with meaning somehow by that, go nuts.
Just don't expect everyone to get all up in the same bunch you're in because you finally got around to reading a Bible verse that has been copied and recopied for millennia.
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Post by tjaman on Jul 4, 2005 12:14:39 GMT -5
Nah. Too many people get their theology from mass media these days. My sister's theology is as Grandma's-attic cluttered with bits she's grabbed from here and there -- a lot of it from movies and from fantasy literature and given that base, I'm actually relieved that she's an agnostic.
Not to be judgmental, but if there are aspects of your theology -- how you treat people as opposed to what you believe as opposed to how you live your life -- that are in conflict with one another, that friction will continue to grate and grind until something has to give way.
From a self-reflection that seemed to be full of contradictions when I was in high school, all inconsistencies have fallen away for me. Life just seems to make a lot more sense now.
Most theology in movies is played for spectacle anyway, and has little to do with day-to-day living.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 4, 2005 12:16:16 GMT -5
TJ do you believe any of the prophets or the Gospel or do you think it was all made up? I am trying to get an understanding of things. This prophecy was in the Bible when you were 8 years old, Reb, before you'd ever read it. It was in the Bible in 1963, in 1821, in 1654 and back in 350. It was in Hebrew Scripture in 43 B.C. and it was in there all the way back to when Jeremiah wrote it down or when it was written down for him.
Just because you read it now and see something happening somewhere in the world that sort of corresponds, doesn't mean that it's finally coming true.
Like I said in the ML Bible thread, the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah were not in any way met in Christ. I'm not a Christian because Isaiah told me to be. My faith in Christ doesn't rely upon Scriptures nor prophecies nor signs nor wonders nor any human artifact. It is a direct spiritual experience.
You don't understand that, and there's no way I can make you understand that. I don't need for you to believe in the same way that I do, and my faith does not rely upon your acceptance.
Believe the entire Old Testament if it makes you happy. Reject, be offended at or "feel sad for" those of us who have a rather more mystical approach to G-d's word if that makes you feel good.
G-d loves you. I love you. There's no problem here beyond the one you're making. You're allowed to see every random thing that happens as having been foretold, and in that your life is all the more infused with meaning somehow by that, go nuts.
Just don't expect everyone to get all up in the same bunch you're in because you finally got around to reading a Bible verse that has been copied and recopied for millennia.Ok, I see what you are saying. I realize many things and I realize all the opposing viewpoints. How do I do things? I go by what I learn. Because the bible is inspired by God and the Christ. And if I don't believe this inspiration then I am practically saying I don't believe in Christ. I serve by faith and deeds and what the bible correlates in its messages to me. And as you can tell many oppose me just as the bible says because I follow so strongly. I find that ironic. I have noticed the way I follow is the way that the bible says will make me blessed in Heaven and will receive horrible treatment from others. Much of which has happened this year. Do I know truth? Yep known it for a while. If God can send himself through his son and die because he loved us so much then I will follow just as strongly. Not very many people if any would die for that cause but Christ did. And through his blood I share I have gained life. 1 Cross 3 Nails = forgiven. And just to be saying. I am planning on taking a public speaking class in the fall. So I can have the chance to give a speech on salvation to the group of people.
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Post by tjaman on Jul 4, 2005 12:19:13 GMT -5
Good luck with that.
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Post by Dr. Purple Goddess on Jul 4, 2005 12:19:26 GMT -5
Reb, don't even start the "are you mad at me" business. You wanted a debate, so you've got one. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm mad at you. I am a bit annoyed however, that you can't just say the phrase "in my opinion" it's a compromise that doesn't give any less weight to what you say or what you think is true. It's just plain respectful of others' beliefs and truths.
I am by no means disputing you. As my knowledge of the bible may not be as extensive as yours or tjs But I refuse to allow you to play the Martyr card when people are bringing up legitimate points to the things you say. Ok that'll work. As I said I will go through Genesis and pull some more concreteness. I just found it weird when I read that people want the proof thing and refuse faith alone. That's even in the bible and that still holds up to this very day. Am i disrespectful by everyone's beliefs. Not exactly because Genesis describes where all these alternates came from. When the tribes sprung out all these false idols and non believers began. Still true to this day. Has anyone here every watched the movie Revelation? I think everyone should watch it and get a feel of things. I don't need proof. I already know what I believe etc. But if you insist on telling everyone they don't know the truth as you see it. You beg people to make you back it up. However, that is neither here nor there. The real point is this: I agree with everything tj said about this subject in last post about how he personally feels in his spirituality etc. At least in the terms of how he interacts with others regarding it. So, I can understand a bit, why you are having trouble with your friends on this subject. No one likes to be told they are misinformed or sad because they don't think the exact way you do. So, I'd begin to take a long hard look at how much fault you bear in the tearing down of your social relationships etc. If everyone else is wrong and you are right....You will never grow and learn. And how would G-d feel about that? (In my opinion)[/color]
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Post by tjaman on Jul 4, 2005 12:23:43 GMT -5
Thanks Feigy. And in all of this, everything I say, has been my take on stuff. I've tried to make that clear and if I've missed it at any point, I apologize.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 4, 2005 12:24:20 GMT -5
As you can tell I am very serious regarding this subject and I won't give up. I have gained a friend of mine back when he realized I was right all along and what would happen if he didn't straighten his act up. He even got a bank account like I suggested so he can start a family with his girlfriend.
I think I have grown quite a bit. Compare me to what I use to be. I use to be a horrible person back then. But when I finally found my way I am able to express myself easily.
I don't try to tear people down. I just give a fore warning. Because if I dont warn my people I will bear their plank in my eye as well. A warning excludes that plank from me that I at least tried.
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