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Post by Aunt Arlene on Jul 5, 2005 6:40:41 GMT -5
Nobodys life will ever be easy, especially not a follower of Christ. I realized this myself a while back. Things just won't be simple. There will be heartache, pain, disscouragement, criticism, and betrayal and all of this is due to darkness. I am sure I have darkness at times because that is the dark sides plan to make me succomb and not give a flying flitter about it. To make me a non-believer and renounce Christ. I will never do that ever. Will I hold my own against criticism? Yes full heartedly. I know the power of Christ regardless of whether anyone wants to believe me or not. I know what I have learned and plan to make it live on forever. Many seem to take another route. The non believing route. From what I hear these folks do not believe in Christ, which they seem to throw into a religion and the creator is not, they seem to believe they will be just dead when the die. I don't understand this really. I mean what do you have to live for? Just earthly possessions? That is not what makes a person really. Those are just materialistic objects. Real character comes from within not what you acquire. I have rewritten thris twelve times and I can't do it without getting pissy. I have to go to work so maybe I'll think of how I want to put things by tonight. Just for now.
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Post by Insane Troll Logic on Jul 5, 2005 7:03:00 GMT -5
Reb - here's a concept I'd like you to think about:
I believe that it's possible to live a happy, fulfilling life where materialism isn't a driving force and wisdom and understanding can be achieved, without being religious in the slightest way.
I'm not saying that I think everyone should be this way, of course. Each to their own. But don't you think that it's at least plausible? Or do think that everyone should be a Christian, no matter how happy and wise they are?
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Post by tjaman on Jul 5, 2005 10:20:24 GMT -5
Reb will answer "yes" to that, ITL, in that his dogma precludes salvation outside acceptance of Christ and as a friend, he wants you to go to heaven.
I believe G-d is a little more open-hearted than that, but hey, you didn't ask me, so //shutting up//.
Cordy already discussed the martyr complex that was just shining through that post where you mention your cell phone bill, deadlines, etc.
Ask yourself, Reb, why you feel G-d is fixing all of these burdens onto your back? Don't the people you're going way far out of your way for bear some responsibility for how their lives progress? All you can do is present to them a life touched by Christ.
And in presenting that to them, if they remain unconvinced, well, the rich man's brothers and family had Moses and the prophets as well, and there really is no reaching some people.
Witness by example is the least burdensome witness. In other words, don't feel that the parable of the goats and the sheep is directed at you personally. It means to help where you reasonably can.
As you were.
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Post by Insane Troll Logic on Jul 5, 2005 10:29:26 GMT -5
That may be so, but salvation is a moot point if you're not a Christian. Salvation is only relevant if you believe it's necessary. So if one person believes that it is necessary and the other one doesn't, there's little point in the first person trying to convince the second.
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Post by Darkchylde on Jul 5, 2005 10:31:11 GMT -5
I'll try something else in my next post and if it gets people ticked off then I will be completely assured that everything I say will tick people off. Oh for god sakes Reb.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 5, 2005 11:08:30 GMT -5
Reb - here's a concept I'd like you to think about: I believe that it's possible to live a happy, fulfilling life where materialism isn't a driving force and wisdom and understanding can be achieved, without being religious in the slightest way.I'm not saying that I think everyone should be this way, of course. Each to their own. But don't you think that it's at least plausible? Or do think that everyone should be a Christian, no matter how happy and wise they are? OK I have a post to preclude this one that will be what I actually wanted to post but i have some things to respond to first. Yes you can live a happy life and fullfilling life in your heart without Christ. But what I am saying is what do you have to look forward to? I mean what you continue to say is that you just croke when you die. For me that makes pretty much anything kinda meaningless wouldn't you say. That's why I found the savior because I wanted to have meaning for me. Something to look forward to when my earthly life is over. I don't want to just die. Do I think people should follow Christ? Yes I do. Do I want everybody to be saved? Yes I really truly do. Why do you think I am trying so hard. It kills me when people don't want to be saved.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 5, 2005 11:11:00 GMT -5
Reb will answer "yes" to that, ITL, in that his dogma precludes salvation outside acceptance of Christ and as a friend, he wants you to go to heaven.
I believe G-d is a little more open-hearted than that, but hey, you didn't ask me, so //shutting up//.
Cordy already discussed the martyr complex that was just shining through that post where you mention your cell phone bill, deadlines, etc.
Ask yourself, Reb, why you feel G-d is fixing all of these burdens onto your back? Don't the people you're going way far out of your way for bear some responsibility for how their lives progress? All you can do is present to them a life touched by Christ.
And in presenting that to them, if they remain unconvinced, well, the rich man's brothers and family had Moses and the prophets as well, and there really is no reaching some people.
Witness by example is the least burdensome witness. In other words, don't feel that the parable of the goats and the sheep is directed at you personally. It means to help where you reasonably can.
As you were. What do you mean by the Lord being more open hearteded? The reason I feel the need to help so much because I don't want people do perish. Especially people I love darnit. I will reach out at least once to people. Possibly more if I see hope in there eyes. That's the type of person I am. I love everybody so much.
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Post by tjaman on Jul 5, 2005 11:50:24 GMT -5
From my perspective, G-d -- mother and father of all creation -- loves that creation so much that there's no way G-d is going to reject a good and faithful person just because they're not a Christian. I believe the exclusivist doctrine was political on the part of the early church leaders -- way more human a source than a divine one.
I see and hear Christians all the time, especially televangelists, who it's hard to discern G-d's love in because they're so frantic about love offerings and talking down to people.
Not all televangelists, of course. Just ... some of them. One of the reasons I have a lot of respect for Joyce Meyers, for example, is because she lifts people up. She wants to get them motivated in their own day-to-day lives, rather than be upset with themselves for bad choices they've made in the past.
One of the coolest things I've heard her say is "G-d loves you just the way you are, and loves you too much to leave you that way."
Change comes from within. The externals are going to follow the internal. Anything else is hypocrisy and ultimately bad witness.
That's my take on it and everyone is completely free to disagree.
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Post by PyleansDontLeaveMe on Jul 5, 2005 13:11:27 GMT -5
I didn't think Reb was a bad person two years ago when I first met him. I like him a lot. Still do, for the record.
INRE: Being opposed for your beliefs- I believe the precedent Jesus set for that was summed up as 'Turn the other cheek'
I do, actually, believe that when you die you're just dead. Your spark is gone. You've past on. I also believe that that's the intrinsic beauty of life. We're all so fragile. We're all so impermanant. EVerything passes away, and so MUST be cherished with your whole heart while you're here. While you can.
With this philosophy, I don't have anything to look forward to after this life. That's true.
And it doesn't bother me. Because I find joy in today. Every day. Even days where Joy's a little thin on the ground, and believe me, I've had a couple of those.
But you know, even the broken things are worth celebrating. Even the sick things exist. Even the leftovers are something to cherish. You know what I mean?
So, my question back to you, Reb- Does that make you think less of me?
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Post by tjaman on Jul 5, 2005 17:14:15 GMT -5
Everybody else I have talked to confirmed what I said about the regions. No we haven't.
Oh, you mean everyone else.
Tell you what. Go into a senior citizens center, a supermarket, and a GOP headquarters, and try to gauge from that how much support there is for tying Social Security to the stock market. Then go to the Congressional Budget Office and pose the same scenario.
Ask a wild-eyed millennialist to define the region of ancient Babylonia and then ask someone who at least looked at a map, and you'll get similarly different answers.
When people with points of view to promote share their views on things, they are often not as reliable as they might be.
Now, without looking at a map one way or t'other, I'm more inclined to believe Py. Why? Because Py isn't trying to make a prophecy come true, and in fact has no stake in the information at all. If he said it coincided exactly I could believe him. If he said ancient Babylonia was located someplace in the Himalayas, I'd be ... inclined to want to check that out myself.
"Everyone you've talked to," on the other hand, might have more of a stake in the information being one way or the other and so therefore your point of view may need to be qualified.
All that being said, I'd accept a hotlink to a map that showed exact border-to-border correlation between Iraq and ancient Babylonia, and even then, I'd want to know who compiled the information for the Web site.
Ultimately, every piece of information in the world is subject to the "Can I believe this?" test, and it's never an inappropriate question to ask.
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Post by Insane Troll Logic on Jul 5, 2005 17:26:42 GMT -5
As far as I can remember, the borders of Sumeria, Babylonia and modern Iraq have all been very different (Modern Iraq was carved up after WW1), so I believe Py to be correct - Bayblon and Iraq are different entities, seperated by time. A huge ammount of time. Also, the seat of power was in a different place with each era.
But as I said earlier, the general Mesopotamian region (be it Sumer, Babylon or Iraq), has always been coveted, fought over, invaded, irrigated, decimated.......you name it.
So I say - prophecy, schmophecy.
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Post by tjaman on Jul 5, 2005 17:34:58 GMT -5
In other words, don't believe everything you're foretold.
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Post by quantumcat on Jul 5, 2005 17:45:00 GMT -5
Reb,
we can't govern the speed or form of a person's spiritual growth any more than we can their physical development.
We can make sure they have the resources they need. (food,air,water,shelter,etc.) We can help them avoid things that would stunt their progress. (disease,toxins,fatigue,other stresses) But after we've done that,we pretty much have to let go and wait to see how God's planned their maturation. Once a proper foundation has been laid,we can't fault their growth for proceeding in its own way rather than complying with our designs.
It's the same with matters of the spirit.
We make sure they have information and support but we nurture best by permitting the person to grow naturally without having any part of their lives be forced .
Trying to push things too fast or manipulating their structure can retard everything we wish to encourage and cause the 'work-in-progress' to become weakened,warped or destroyed altogether.
It also shows a certain amount of arrogance and lack of faith.
It's a terribly hard lesson to learn but the 'fullness of time " is more often measured by God's calendar than his stopwatch.
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Post by Charisma69 on Jul 5, 2005 18:05:53 GMT -5
Reb, we can't govern the speed or form of a person's spiritual growth any more than we can their physical development. We can make sure they have the resources they need. (food,air,water,shelter,etc.) We can help them avoid things that would stunt their progress. (disease,toxins,fatigue,other stresses) But after we've done that,we pretty much have to let go and wait to see how God's planned their maturation. Once a proper foundation has been laid,we can't fault their growth for proceeding in its own way rather than complying with our designs. It's the same with matters of the spirit. We make sure they have information and support but we nurture best by permitting the person to grow naturally without having any part of their lives be forced . Trying to push things too fast or manipulating their structure can retard everything we wish to encourage and cause the 'work-in-progress' to become weakened,warped or destroyed altogether. It also shows a certain amount of arrogance and lack of faith. It's a terribly hard lesson to learn but the 'fullness of time " is more often measured by God's calendar than his stopwatch. Very well said q'cat.
You always make you points so much better that I do, and without all that pesky snarkiness that tends to sneak into my posts too.
I really need to work on that.
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Post by Rebelman on Jul 5, 2005 18:12:09 GMT -5
From my perspective, G-d -- mother and father of all creation -- loves that creation so much that there's no way G-d is going to reject a good and faithful person just because they're not a Christian. I believe the exclusivist doctrine was political on the part of the early church leaders -- way more human a source than a divine one.
I see and hear Christians all the time, especially televangelists, who it's hard to discern G-d's love in because they're so frantic about love offerings and talking down to people.
Not all televangelists, of course. Just ... some of them. One of the reasons I have a lot of respect for Joyce Meyers, for example, is because she lifts people up. She wants to get them motivated in their own day-to-day lives, rather than be upset with themselves for bad choices they've made in the past.
One of the coolest things I've heard her say is "G-d loves you just the way you are, and loves you too much to leave you that way."
Change comes from within. The externals are going to follow the internal. Anything else is hypocrisy and ultimately bad witness.
That's my take on it and everyone is completely free to disagree. So what you just said was that even the non-believers in Christ will go to Heaven? Is that like a nicer thing to say?
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